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Lightforce    51

Thx for your comments. Let's debate about all of this :)

- for "The Monkey Puzzle", it has its place in Natural Trance and in a perfect way. I don't understand why it shoudn't be there. Taken on their bandcamp : "Tamara Kazziha – Vocals and Violin, Ralph Stokes – Guitar, Andy Strong – Clarinet, Ian, Gibb – Bass, David French – Drums, Andrew Clark – Percussion and FX". Furthermore, it has a lots of Psyprog elements. So it fits this category. Nothing wrong here to my mind :)

for "Kataphasis", same : it has its place in Natural Trance. It has a lot of elements of Psychedelic Downtempo and Psy Dub. It's not Psytrance or "classic" Trance per see but it's linked to. But I think I understand why you think it shouldn't be there for "The Monkey Puzzle" and "Kataphasis", maybe it's because the definition is too restrictive ? Because, in fact, to be Natural Trance you just have to blend any style of Psychedelic Trance (except Suomi and Experimental), or even "classic" Trance, with any kind of music with conventional instruments.

- I didn't understood your point on the 
dark/luminous argument of forest psytrance. The Dark/Luminous which I was talking about were about atmosphere. Once again I think there's nothing wrong here. The part of my pdf explains how much the forest style can be dark to luminous. 100% dark/0% luminous to 25% dark/75% luminous. I listened to Imaginary Sight and you're right: it's very luminous. But for me it's not 0% dark/100% luminous. It's more on 25% dark/75% luminous. In fact I think forest can't be and never been 0% dark/100% luminous, but maybe it's a matter of point of view. And I listened a lot Hux Flux and maybe I'm wrong again but Hux Flux is not Forest :huh:

- about Proto-Goa section : it's not only Trance, it's all the kind of genres/artists/albums/tracks, even those that are not electronic, who has been the most close to Old School Goa and influent for her creation. To my mind, Ozric has a way to be psychedelic that has been influent and kind of close to some way to be psychedelic in Old School Goa.

Anyone else has a different point or the same point ?

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Oopie    152
11 hours ago, Lightforce said:

- I didn't understood your point on the dark/luminous argument of forest psytrance. The Dark/Luminous which I was talking about were about atmosphere. Once again I think there's nothing wrong here. The part of my pdf explains how much the forest style can be dark to luminous. 100% dark/0% luminous to 25% dark/75% luminous. I listened to Imaginary Sight and you're right: it's very luminous. But for me it's not 0% dark/100% luminous. It's more on 25% dark/75% luminous. In fact I think forest can't be and never been 0% dark/100% luminous, but maybe it's a matter of point of view. And I listened a lot Hux Flux and maybe I'm wrong again but Hux Flux is not Forest :huh:

- about Proto-Goa section : it's not only Trance, it's all the kind of genres/artists/albums/tracks, even those that are not electronic, who has been the most close to Old School Goa and influent for her creation. To my mind, Ozric has a way to be psychedelic that has been influent and kind of close to some way to be psychedelic in Old School Goa.

Anyone else has a different point or the same point ?

Hey I agree that forest is never 100% luminous, yet on the chart you represented the line shows it would differ from 100% dark to 50/50 dark/luminous. Or is it not? 

I would agree the recent Hux Flux isn't forest, the stuff he was churning out for the past few years. But the old stuff! He's one of the guys who were there to invent the whole thing with his 'Cryptic Crunch' album. The last really great forest track he made is in my books 'Post 100' from 2006. 

I do agree with Pauli Ozrics aren't Proto-Goa. It's easy to drag them into discussion because of the obvious Eat Static connection. Then again you could as easily say many acid house/techno tracks from the 1980s are Proto-Goa in such context. But they aren't. Proto-Goa is somewhat precise style with obvious goa melody/bassline, usually just lacking more serious psychedelic soundscape. A lot of it is released on 12" records on Belgian/German labels and it takes dedication to know this music. 

Here's a couple examples:

 

 

 

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Lightforce    51
On 6/30/2018 at 10:26 AM, Oopie said:

Hey I agree that forest is never 100% luminous, yet on the chart you represented the line shows it would differ from 100% dark to 50/50 dark/luminous. Or is it not? 

I would agree the recent Hux Flux isn't forest, the stuff he was churning out for the past few years. But the old stuff! He's one of the guys who were there to invent the whole thing with his 'Cryptic Crunch' album. The last really great forest track he made is in my books 'Post 100' from 2006. 

I do agree with Pauli Ozrics aren't Proto-Goa. It's easy to drag them into discussion because of the obvious Eat Static connection. Then again you could as easily say many acid house/techno tracks from the 1980s are Proto-Goa in such context. But they aren't. Proto-Goa is somewhat precise style with obvious goa melody/bassline, usually just lacking more serious psychedelic soundscape. A lot of it is released on 12" records on Belgian/German labels and it takes dedication to know this music.

- Okay, my memory played tricks on me. You're right about the dark/luminous perception, I'll correct that and increase the possibility of the forest to 25% dark/75% luminous.

- I know all the albums of Hux Flux, including Cryptic Crunch. I listened it again in the meantime. It has a forest side but also a small Twilight one at some moments so I think I still shouldn't include it in forest.

- After your explainations it's ok for remove Ozric from the Proto-Goa section and thanks for your examples I think I'll take "New Life, New Civilization" instead.

Thank you and thanks Paul Eye too for taking the time for these points :)

And you know what ? This pdf will celebrate its 50th update :D

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Lightforce    51

Update of the PDF, you can download the new version.

 

Here is the list of changes that have been made:

 

- correction about the "Dark/Luminous" amount in the Forest style (page 74)

- album replacement in the "Proto-Goa" page of the "Bonus" section

- addition of a version number on the first page at the top left

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Paul Eye    442
On 6/30/2018 at 12:11 AM, Lightforce said:

- for "The Monkey Puzzle", it has its place in Natural Trance and in a perfect way. I don't understand why it shoudn't be there. Taken on their bandcamp : "Tamara Kazziha – Vocals and Violin, Ralph Stokes – Guitar, Andy Strong – Clarinet, Ian, Gibb – Bass, David French – Drums, Andrew Clark – Percussion and FX". Furthermore, it has a lots of Psyprog elements. So it fits this category. Nothing wrong here to my mind :)

for "Kataphasis", same : it has its place in Natural Trance. It has a lot of elements for Psychedelic Downtempo and Psy Dub. It's not Psytrance or "classic" Trance per see but it's linked to. But I think I understand why you think it shouldn't be there for "The Monkey Puzzle" and "Kataphasis", maybe it's because the definition is too restrictive ? Because, in fact, to be Natural Trance you just have to blend any style of Psychedelic Trance (except Suomi and Experimental), or even "classic" Trance, with any kind of music with conventional instruments.

Yeah, that was my main concern. Both those albums are psychedelia (played) with real instruments and synths, but I wouldn't call either of them any form of "trance". Would you add Ott & The All-Seeing I to that category, based on the downtempo/psydub aspect and that they play Ott's music live with a band?

I'd probably rather add something (early) by Star Sounds Orchestra to the Natural Trance category, but even that might be pushing it a bit :)

Or maybe something with a more obvious trance vibe from the "organic" section at Ektoplazm: http://www.ektoplazm.com/style/organic

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Lightforce    51
On 7/1/2018 at 5:24 PM, Paul Eye said:

Yeah, that was my main concern. Both those albums are psychedelia (played) with real instruments and synths, but I wouldn't call either of them any form of "trance". Would you add Ott & The All-Seeing I to that category, based on the downtempo/psydub aspect and that they play Ott's music live with a band?

Yes I would, but only if their "studio" album was done in such way too :)

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Lightforce    51

Update of the PDF, you can download the new version.

 

Here is the list of changes that have been made:

 

- add "Deep Trance", "Goa Ambient" and "Psy Dub" in the albums set as examples in the definition of Psybient

120a.jpg

18d5.jpg

Tell me if you see something wrong to your eyes here and explain me why :)

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Lightforce    51

Hi everyone, I'm currently working on turning the pdf into a website. The coding could take some time but all of this is underway. I don't know how long it will take but I intend to go all the way. The pdf will of course be updated regularly each time the website will be updated and the pdf will act as a downloadable version of the website in addition to being a stand alone as you currently know it. I'll keep you informed about all of this ;)

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Wow awesome Project Lightforce!

2 Things...i dont think that "four carry nuts - Mechanical Age" is Darkpsy. It is something between Goa and Fullon. It has a darkish steampunk atmosphere but it is not Darkpsy!

"Psykovsky - Ksolntsu" is Hi tech if i am not wrong...

 

The transition from Classic Goa to Psytrance had a smal genre in between of them. A hybrid of Goa and Psy. I personally call this music Psychedelic Trance or Goadelic Trance(lots of VAs in the late 90s did it too...)

But it is not Psytrance!

It still has the Goa groove but sounds more twisted/darkish and psychedelic than Goa. And its too melodic/funky for Psytrance even if it has the "metallic" synths...

 

Psychedelic Trance: Cydonia - In fear of a red planet, Four Carry Nuts, Sandman, Kox Box, Orichalcum&The Deviant, Alienated, Deviant electronics, MFG - the message....but its just my opinion:) 

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Lightforce    51

Thanks for your support ;)
 

2 hours ago, Psychedelic Superbeast said:

2 Things...i dont think that "four carry nuts - Mechanical Age" is Darkpsy. It is something between Goa and Fullon. It has a darkish steampunk atmosphere but it is not Darkpsy!

In fact it's a blend of Goa, Darkpsy, Full-On and Industrial. So I think it has partially its place in the Darkpsy section.
 

Quote

"Psykovsky - Ksolntsu" is Hi tech if i am not wrong...

It's a blend between Psycore and something that some called "neurotrance" ^_^
 

Quote

The transition from Classic Goa to Psytrance had a smal genre in between of them. A hybrid of Goa and Psy. I personally call this music Psychedelic Trance or Goadelic Trance(lots of VAs in the late 90s did it too...)

But it is not Psytrance!

It still has the Goa groove but sounds more twisted/darkish and psychedelic than Goa. And its too melodic/funky for Psytrance even if it has the "metallic" synths...

 

Psychedelic Trance: Cydonia - In fear of a red planet, Four Carry Nuts, Sandman, Kox Box, Orichalcum&The Deviant, Alienated, Deviant electronics, MFG - the message....but its just my opinion:) 

This corresponds to the "Pre-Psytrance" described in "Origins and Pioneers". This moment when Old School Goa is beginning a transformation toward Psytrance by including more effects and more "twisted/darkish" sound, as you told it, than in regular Old school Goa. But it's not a style on it's own. It's just Old School Goa before it's definitive transformation into (old school) Psytrance. I would let the concerned albums in the Goa section, just as you wouldn't create a sub-style name for 90's "Pre-Forest" because it's just Old School Goa, you get me? Btw I never saw the "Goadelic Trance" term used before, it's not an official term I guess (but maybe I'm wrong) and "Psychedelic Trance" is already used to refer to all Goa Trance and Psytrance music so if we use it to designate the "Pre-psytrance" style what is left to designate all styles?

I can see what you mean but you can't make a clean slate of official terms to replace their meaning or forget them in favor of terms that are personal or specific to a small group of people as we see many in the reddit psytrance forums that does not seem to have understood correctly or to take into account what already exists :)

If you have further questions or remarks don't hesitate ^_^

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there are a lot of Various artists CDs from 1998-2000 wich have "Psychedelic Trance" or "Psychedelic..." in the name...and this CDs were focused on "Goadelic Trance"(Late Goa)

I for example have never heard the term "neurotrance" :)...i think you should just do it your own way! It is too complicated and sensless to have an argument about this beautiful music. There are people who use GOA as the mother term for this music but also people like you and others who call this whole music PSYCHEDELIC TRANCE. You made an very good job and it looks very atmospheric with the pictures!

 

But "Four Carry Nuts - Mechanical age" is wrong in the Darkpsy section...it is one of my favorite Albums and it is "late pre Psytrance Goa with some Industrial and Technoesque elements" but the Core is Goa. Just hear at least he first track...

Tim Schuldt never did Darkpsy! he always did industrial influenced "Goadelic Trance"(Late Goa before old school Psytrance) .

You should decide by the musical Core/elements and not by Atmosphere. Darkpsy is not scarry dark Goa with 155 Bpm!...to be honest, it has almost nothing to do with Goa.

But "Mechanical Age" Has to do with it and just because it sounds a bit deep or twilight it does not mean that its Darkpsy or Death Metal.

 

 

DARKPSY

 

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Lightforce    51
2 hours ago, Psychedelic Superbeast said:

I for example have never heard the term "neurotrance" :)

Well, "neurotrance" is not one of the terms I use and I don't know if it exists as an official sub-style per see but I just saw it used in some occasions to designate this kind of "undark" psytrance (like "unblack metal" :P).
 

Quote

There are people who use GOA as the mother term for this music

Yes I talk about this in the first page of the pdf and it explain why some people (often the oldest ones) are still using this term to designate the whole music :)
 

Quote

But "Four Carry Nuts - Mechanical age" is wrong in the Darkpsy section...it is one of my favorite Albums and it is "late pre Psytrance Goa with some Industrial and Technoesque elements" but the Core is Goa. Just hear at least he first track...

I relistened the whole album and, my bad, you're right : the harsh parts of tracks are closer to industrial music rather than Darkpsy.
 

Quote

You should decide by the musical Core/elements and not by Atmosphere. Darkpsy is not scarry dark Goa with 155 Bpm!...to be honest, it has almost nothing to do with Goa.

But "Mechanical Age" Has to do with it and just because it sounds a bit deep or twilight it does not mean that its Darkpsy or Death Metal.

There is a misunderstanding, I never classified styles according to their atmosphere, they are classified according to their structure, sonoritites, effects,...etc ;)

Anyway thank you for that, I will rectify the presence of "Four Carry Nuts" in the Darkpsy section to move it probably in the "Experimental" one, considering its hybrid aesthetic.

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Padmapani    365

four carry nuts - mechanical age is psytek in my library. just as like most of the delta stuff, x-dream's irritant or planet ben's silver album, spirallianz' stereopark+blast food, organic noise's vacuum tube…

it's definitely not darkpsy.
you're right about that industrial aesthetic, but it shares that with the other psytek releases.

 

goadelic is a term i only know from compiltion names. in my perception it was more of a fashionable label (in the early 00s) for all psy rather than standing for a specific style.

neurotrance imho is just another synonym for darkpsy or to be more specific for the less-dark (= more weird than evil sounding) darkpsy. so a hybrid between neurotrance (non-evil normal-bpm darkpsy) and psycore (evil high-bpm darkpsy) could either be non-evil high-bpm darkpsy (aka hitech) or evil normal-bpm darkpsy (aka just darkpsy). psykovsky is definitely high-bpm so normal darkpsy is out ;). that album would be hitech (sometimes bordering on psycore) to me.

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Lightforce    51
10 hours ago, Padmapani said:

four carry nuts - mechanical age is psytek in my library. just as like most of the delta stuff, x-dream's irritant or planet ben's silver album, spirallianz' stereopark+blast food, organic noise's vacuum tube…

it's definitely not darkpsy.
you're right about that industrial aesthetic, but it shares that with the other psytek releases.

Alright, I had some doubts about the Psy Tech side but you're right, many old school Psy Tech had this heavy industrial easthetic too so I guess it's place is in Psy Tech section after all.
 

Quote

goadelic is a term i only know from compiltion names. in my perception it was more of a fashionable label (in the early 00s) for all psy rather than standing for a specific style.

I thought there was something like that, that's why I don't think adding the term is judicious.
 

Quote

neurotrance imho is just another synonym for darkpsy or to be more specific for the less-dark (= more weird than evil sounding) darkpsy. so a hybrid between neurotrance (non-evil normal-bpm darkpsy) and psycore (evil high-bpm darkpsy) could either be non-evil high-bpm darkpsy (aka hitech) or evil normal-bpm darkpsy (aka just darkpsy). psykovsky is definitely high-bpm so normal darkpsy is out ;). that album would be hitech (sometimes bordering on psycore) to me.

Nonetheless Psykovsky has the roughness of Psycore that makes me think that it should be left in Psycore.

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Ormion    415

I downloaded and read it all. I've said it before that it's a great work and one that interests me a lot.

Now couple of things I want to mention:

1) You mentioned in Dark Psytance about horror movie samples, but I can tell you that a veeeeeery rare case. I listen to darkpsy for years and I struggle to remember 10 tracks with horror samples. The same I can tell about references to other genres to discredit them. That's very, very rare almost non existent. 

2) I'm not sure that Psykovsky-Ksolntsu should be in the Psycore category. I think it fits better to Darkpsy or even Hi-Tech, but I understand it's a difficult to categorize album, so ok.

3) I don't think it's correct to say that Forest was born from Dark Psytrance. In my understanding Forest was born from BOTFB, Ka-Sol etc and it was only until 2003 when Derango start creating more Darkpsy-ish Forest and other artists followed the trend. I would say that Forest and Dark Psytrance were developed independently and at one point somehow met and became similar sounding.

4) As I wrote before I don't think psyprog and psygressive are too different things.

5) I'm not sure if Four Carry Nuts-Mechanical Age is actually Dark Psytrance. Some tracks sure, others are 100% Goa, or Psytech.

6) Is K.O.B.-Identity Mash really a forest album?

7) You can create a new subgenre Goambient. Sure you can say that Psybient includes old school tracks as well, but the differencies between let's say Aes Dana and Total Eclipse ambient works are night and day.

 

Great work! :+1::+1::+1:

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Padmapani    365
2 hours ago, Ormion said:

4) As I wrote before I don't think psyprog and psygressive are too different things.

6) Is K.O.B.-Identity Mash really a forest album?

what?

i'll definitely agree with ormion here. psyprog and psygressive (the latter of which is seldom used anyway) both mostly just refer to either the more fullon-like prog or prog in general. i wouldn't see either of them is seperate genres and much less as distinct from each other.

kob is psytrancey goa or goa-y psytrance. weird stuff but imho definitely not forest.

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Lightforce    51

Yay ! Here we go again ! We're back together to improve this pdf, let's do this :lol:

19 hours ago, Ormion said:

I downloaded and read it all. I've said it before that it's a great work and one that interests me a lot.

Now couple of things I want to mention:

1) You mentioned in Dark Psytance about horror movie samples, but I can tell you that a veeeeeery rare case. I listen to darkpsy for years and I struggle to remember 10 tracks with horror samples. The same I can tell about references to other genres to discredit them. That's very, very rare almost non existent. 

Ok, I will mention the fact that it's very rare in the definition.
 

Quote

2) I'm not sure that Psykovsky-Ksolntsu should be in the Psycore category. I think it fits better to Darkpsy or even Hi-Tech, but I understand it's a difficult to categorize album, so ok.

I don't agree with that. As I explained earlier there's a psycore roughness and "unclean" aesthetic at some moments in Psykovsky's style that make me categorize it in Psycore rather than Hi-Tech.
 

Quote

3) I don't think it's correct to say that Forest was born from Dark Psytrance. In my understanding Forest was born from BOTFB, Ka-Sol etc and it was only until 2003 when Derango start creating more Darkpsy-ish Forest and other artists followed the trend. I would say that Forest and Dark Psytrance were developed independently and at one point somehow met and became similar sounding.

There's a mistake from me here. Because I wrote in french version something like "The "Forest" is a Psychedelic Trance style mainly born from Dark Psytrance" but it seems like I forgot the "mainly" in the english version. It will be corrected.

And I already know all of that about the beginning of Forest that has its roots in Old School Goa with BOTFB and Ka-Sol...etc as I already explained it in the "Origins and pioneers" section of the pdf and that was thanks to you btw ;)
 

Quote

4) As I wrote before I don't think psyprog and psygressive are too different things.

 

17 hours ago, Padmapani said:

i'll definitely agree with ormion here. psyprog and psygressive (the latter of which is seldom used anyway) both mostly just refer to either the more fullon-like prog or prog in general. i wouldn't see either of them is seperate genres and much less as distinct from each other.

Well...this point is a bit of a struggle for me because I saw a certain amount of people saying the exact opposite by linking "Psygressive" to Zenonesque. I've to admit that I don't know what to do anymore on this point.
 

Quote

5) I'm not sure if Four Carry Nuts-Mechanical Age is actually Dark Psytrance. Some tracks sure, others are 100% Goa, or Psytech.

This album will go in the Psy Tech section.
 

Quote

6) Is K.O.B.-Identity Mash really a forest album?

 

17 hours ago, Padmapani said:

kob is psytrancey goa or goa-y psytrance. weird stuff but imho definitely not forest.

Listen to these ones and tell me that's not Forest. If that's not Forest I go running naked while eating my hat for 30 minutes in the street. It's going to make headlines of newspapers at the international. And I don't want that and you even less.

 

 

Quote

7) You can create a new subgenre Goambient. Sure you can say that Psybient includes old school tracks as well, but the differencies between let's say Aes Dana and Total Eclipse ambient works are night and day.

I don't think creating a new subgenre for this is worth. I think it's more coherent to keep it in Psybient section as it already is.
 

Quote

Great work! :+1::+1::+1:

Thank you ^_^

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Four Carry Nuts is difficult...same difficult like "Dark Soho - Combustion" and "Xenomorph - Demagoguery Of The Obscurants" because these are albums with mixed up music. All of them have pure Industrial tracks on them while the rest is darkish Goa or Psy. Maybe psytech is the right place for FCN - MA. 

At the moment i work myselfe through the Parvati history and the post 2006 parvati sound was way different than the later stuff they realeased. The first compilation they released "first step" was scando psy and remembers of flying rhino, Transient, Koyote. After that (since 2003) they started to release very dark and agressive night music! Maybe it was Darkpsy but its not Forest! 

Since "Psy Stories 3 " the music changed into forest psy. More atmospheric hypnotic less brutal Psytrance. I think that forest had two parents(like every one of us...hopefully) the one is early darkpsy and the other one is Late Goa. The bassline groove in forest music is a Goa groove :)

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Lightforce    51
4 hours ago, Psychedelic Superbeast said:

At the moment i work myselfe through the Parvati history and the post 2006 parvati sound was way different than the later stuff they realeased. The first compilation they released "first step" was scando psy and remembers of flying rhino, Transient, Koyote. After that (since 2003) they started to release very dark and agressive night music! Maybe it was Darkpsy but its not Forest! 

Since "Psy Stories 3 " the music changed into forest psy. More atmospheric hypnotic less brutal Psytrance. I think that forest had two parents(like every one of us...hopefully) the one is early darkpsy and the other one is Late Goa. The bassline groove in forest music is a Goa groove :)


When I started creating the "Origins and pioneers" page for Forest, Ormion told me :

On 7/30/2015 at 7:35 PM, Ormion said:

Forest:

I think we can all agree that BOTFB are the fathers of Forest. Together with Ka-Sol they pretty much created the forest sound. I personally think that Logic Bomb and Hux Flux were some early pioneers without being actually Forest. When it comes to the more complex Darkpsy-ish Forest I think Derango must be the first with so much focus in effects. Of course Schlabbaduerst records are the most famous Forest label. Other highly influential labels are Boom! (not a forest label, but helped the genre) and Stoneage records.


Influential releases:
BOTFB-Twin Sharkfins
V/A-Tales From The Forest
V/A-Psychoactive Psychosounds
Schlabbaduerst 001


Year of origin:
1997-98 somewhere there I guess.
2003 for the modern Forest sound.

Origin of the name:
I guess from the Tales Of The Forest compilation?

But I don't know what albums or productions out in 2003 he was thinking about when he was talking about modern Forest (the Darkpsy-ish one I guess). Because the oldest modern Forest productions I know dates back to 2005 and it's Derango - Tumult and a compilation named "Boldly Audio" but maybe I'm wrong.

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@Ormion 

Is proto Goa... Goa Trance? "proto" music means that there was a sub genre before the genre sub was oficial. Battle of the future buddhas is not Forest...it is just bad made scandinavian industrial trance.

Kasol appeared later if i am not wrong...way after the Dark Psychotrance music started. And even if Ka sol was at the same time  like Darkpsy hes music never was forest. Its well made scandinavian Industrial trance. I am not care if his album was on suntrip! suntrip is not the father of goa. 

Derango is another thing...his music is indeed forest but derango had his earliest releases on parvati rec and parevati did Darkpsy before derango even appearedd there.

Forest is out of Darkpsy. Forest is a sub sub gengre of Dark Psytrance.

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in the end it does not realy matter who was the first...its about who is the best. and in both Darkpsy and Forest russian producers are the climax at the moment. Where are the scandinavians??

Forest: 

 

Dark/Hi:

 

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Ormion    415

Ka-Sol first released his tracks in 1998 and imo together with BOTFB are the pioneers of Forest.

To my understanding and experience (as I first started to listen to psy in 1998 so I was there when all this subgenres started to appear) is that what we used to call Forest was the sound of BOTFB, Ka-Sol or even Logic Bomb and Hux Flux. It was basically a Goa trance/old school Psytrance derivative. It was mostly after Derango that Forest became more fx driven than full melodic (in spite the fact that Derango tracks still have melodies). 

Meanwhile Darkpsy was born in 2001-2002 mostly from Acidance records and Parvati first two releases. AFAIK nobody was mentioning Forest when we talked about that. This is why I believe that around 2004-2005 Forest and Darkpsy met and for some became interchangeable, but when it comes to origins they are from different branches.

 

1 hour ago, Lightforce said:

But I don't know what albums or productions out in 2003 he was thinking about when he was talking about modern Forest (the Darkpsy-ish one I guess). Because the oldest Forest productions I know dates back to 2005 and it's Derango - Tumult and a compilation named "Boldly Audio" but maybe I'm wrong.

I meant Tales From The Dark Forest from Stoneage records that featured Derango and released in 2003.

Then in 2004 they solidified their unique sound together with Dronebixie and others.

 

But again this is to my personal understanding of how things went. After all things like that didn't pop out out of nothing.

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psytones    82

^ and don't forget the softness of Forest that (after what i know) Procs and Hutti Heita formed in the early 2000-s...? Where hutti heita is of mosstrance, Ka-Sol is of the heathertrance '' :P 

 

~

Psychedeluc core v Psychotic core 

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2 hours ago, Ormion said:

Ka-Sol first released his tracks in 1998 and imo together with BOTFB are the pioneers of Forest.

To my understanding and experience (as I first started to listen to psy in 1998 so I was there when all this subgenres started to appear) is that what we used to call Forest was the sound of BOTFB, Ka-Sol or even Logic Bomb and Hux Flux. It was basically a Goa trance/old school Psytrance derivative. It was mostly after Derango that Forest became more fx driven than full melodic (in spite the fact that Derango tracks still have melodies). 

Meanwhile Darkpsy was born in 2001-2002 mostly from Acidance records and Parvati first two releases. AFAIK nobody was mentioning Forest when we talked about that. This is why I believe that around 2004-2005 Forest and Darkpsy met and for some became interchangeable, but when it comes to origins they are from different branches.

 

I meant Tales From The Dark Forest from Stoneage records that featured Derango and released in 2003.

Then in 2004 they solidified their unique sound together with Dronebixie and others.

 

But again this is to my personal understanding of how things went. After all things like that didn't pop out out of nothing.

ok ka sol and BOTFB are nordic people but it does not mean that they did automatically forest. Curble back your pride Ormion. 

Batte buddha is cheesy music...i hear them too but it is bad produced industrial goa with ugly melodies. This Guys did not even know what musical harmony is! some tracks are unbeleaveble bad. Kas sol started to do "forest" with the 2 albums released on suntrip. And it is """""FOREST"""""....on """"""""SUNTRIP""""""".

I am DJ an one track of Ka Sol before a forest set os ok but if we are honest...the real forest dont fit with the GoaTech KaSol did. IT is not the same!

Should i post tracks to compare Kasol and your ugly BOTFB with good Forest? 

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KER    5

For what I ear,  the "jazziness" and more elements, a lot of dark psy forest sounds a lot like better modern fatter Demon Tea, oozie/suomi (Rippie Van Hippie and what not 90s flip). I bet the Danish Parvati gang had love there. Crazy Zoologians <3

The recharging, tumbling, restocking beats of forest that I usually connect to the wilder Sanatonians of sweeden, like Hallucinogenic Horses, I also hear here on these Dejan tracks, forest. And he's French .. origin of, or pathway to - donno ..  https://shop.vertigo-records.com/album/terminator-dejan-overdrive

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