mentat Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 blah blah blah *mentat adds some smack-on comment on this difficult and ongoing disscussion within the psytrance community... and as always, he hits the nail on the head with his sophisticated and insightful opinion* blah blah blah ... and also i might add that... and not to forget that... i hope that hepls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike A Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Journey Man Project Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 well I said I don;t download stuff I can get on cd's... and if you search hard enough you can find the old stuff and save up... tka eon extra work.. I have! I worked 72 hours straight one week with no sleep to by 4 Tantrance compilations... and if it is only online or if the musician orlabel gives it for free then of course it's ok d-uh... that kind of stuff isn't piracy, piracy is copying or giving away or selling copyrighted materials... it is theft. yeah it's fine.. it's legal... that's the hwole point.. if it is legal there is nothing wrong with it, though I never do it coz I find downloads are just not the same as a cd... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abasio Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 yeah it's fine.. it's legal... that's the hwole point.. if it is legal there is nothing wrong with it, though I never do it coz I find downloads are just not the same as a cd... I was thinking of the digital only releases. From fake science I got a great Hol Baumann set & a great Cell set. I'd really like it if they were released on CD though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAH Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 Still dreaming, eh? Here are some facts for you: - many pirating sites do a better job promoting new releases than the labels do (check Google and you'll see) - legal digital downloads often cost more than the physical product and the selection is never as good as what you can find on pirate networks - downloading has become the way people procure music yet there is no comprehensive legal source for psytrance music online - there are several barriers to entry should one wish to buy psytrance (i.e. one must own a credit card) - releases never go out-of-stock on Soulseek and if they do, one can always check back in a few minutes - many psytrance fans come from countries where people do not typically have the kind of disposable income many of us Westerners are accustomed to (an important point many people gloss over) :blink: Downloading is a symptom of the psytrance industry's failure to address the challenges of a rapidly changing marketplace. If the artists, labels, and distributors can cooperate to develop a central portal that offers a huge selection of music at an affordable price in a variety of formats there's a chance the tide could be turned... I think you have to look at it this way: the vast majority of psytrance listeners get their music illegally not only because it is free, but also because it is extremely convenient, takes place instantly, and nearly anything can be found. There is not a legal service in the world that comes close. The flawed paradigm that has precipitated this situation can be expressed as follows: the industry does not need to respond to changes in customer buying habits; customer buying habits should conform to the will of the industry. This is why hundreds of CDs have been inscribed with the phrase "copy kills your music" over the years, but only one release (that I have heard of) included a spare CD to give to a friend. No wonder so many people simply pirate music these days--the culture of entitlement that dominates the psytrance industry practically ensures it. As such, the industry has not harmoniously adapted to changing circumstances; the system has become twisted. Distributors routinely rip off their clients just to stay alive, labels don't pay their artists, and so on down the line. It all seems quite dysfunctional--a mad scramble for the elusive consumer dollar. So it goes... that's all very poetic and romantic, but reality works differently man. Even if you do offer people a centralized web portal were they could, in theory, purchase all the music they wanted, they still won't buy, beacuse it's already available for free... why the fuck, am i gonna spend money on something when i can get for free? The people that buy music in this scene very often feel no sense of attachment to files. This off course, does not stop anyone from downloading, because... it's free and that's an unbeatable price. Morals, that certainly has not worked, because we don't really feel like it's a big deal, not even when I download the spare DIVX movie here and there. so what's the solution? i have no idea, i wrecked my brain to find it for far too long to care much about it these days. Let's see where it takes us, bottom line is distributors have finally started to get a grip about things, and in the end that might tighten quality control a bit, it might not... sales are way down anyway, but the music keeps coming out... my personal theory is, someone is using it this setup for laundering... but i'm afraid i've said too much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisk Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 that's all very poetic and romantic, but reality works differently man. No, really, it's just that you have to offer something cheaper, more reliable, and in essence--better than the illegal alternative, at a price that people don't balk at. Yeah, I know that sounds impossible! What would really work is a paradigm shift. Consider for a moment value-added features... in fact, imagine MySpace custom-tailored to the psytrance crowd. You have to have the works: personal profiles, blogs, forums, radio, global event listings, etc. Plus, of course, music to download. You give artists/labels/whoever the choice of how to share files: for free, streamed, for a price, or whatever, with a standardized per-unit cost (by the meg in other words) and keep the price low. Some of that money goes back to the artists of course. I mean, look at how popular MySpace is with the psytrance label posse now--nearly everyone has a profile up with some songs to check out. Imagine you could either download those songs for free or easily pay for the ones that cost something. Of course you would also code in a way to browse all the music available for purchase or free download, rate individual songs/albums/mixes, and generally integrate everything good about social networking sites with a killer digital downloading app that actually respects the Long Tail i.e. doesn't bar anyone from participating and selling their music. If there is a good way to search for stuff then you're set--the more content the merrier! This is total stream-of-consciousness rambling that will never amount to much but it's conceivable, you understand... not as a flimsy one-man spare-time project but if you get some start-up cash and a team of good coders and designers the thing could be built and it could be big. Really, you just have to offer something so much more awesome than skulking around on Soulseek getting flipped off by jackasses who automatically ban your leeching or whatever. I mean, this is the truth: pirating music is bloody easy but it is not without a certain amount of awkwardness. I think that giving any producer the power to promote, distribute, and sell their music on a well-designed social networking site will have immediate advantages... you would instantly be building a pool of music the pirate networks would not be able to keep up with... I mean, you know my line RAH--I have huge respect for what you're trying to do--I think its the way forward (or at least the way through). Embracing the digital age is what people have to do; selling atoms is so last century! Haha, well you know I am not that much of an extremist (I love my physical goods) but the point is that physical releases are easy prey for the digitizing mafia. Why pay for something when you can get it for free? True, most people follow that idea! So give them something better than "just free" if you see what I mean... give them a mash-up of Facebook and Beatport/iTunes with MySpace-like customization flexibility! Now, chances are this will happen (think about it: there's a new social networking phenomenon springing up every six months!) but I doubt it would be very psytrance-oriented... but then again, why bother? With a concept like this you could take a huge market share. I wager we'll see something very much like it soon enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTP Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 dude, if download groups didn't exist I'd still not have this fucking "new" S-Range album that is STILL NOT RELEASED () and I would have gone *insert pic of atom bomb explosion* already a long time ago! I'll be forever thankful for that. Yes, arrest me now, I will still be fucking thankful! HAIL JFK TEAM! Damn it! F*kin' sh*ttin' freakin' DAMN IT! *booom!* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D3lirious Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 I´m a sucker for art and that includes album cover art, so yes I treasure my originals far more than some MP3:s. If I ever download anything it´s just to check the music to find out if it´s worth buying. If it has an amazing cover I usually get it anyway hahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTP Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 I´m a sucker for art and that includes album cover art, so yes I treasure my originals far more than some MP3:s. If I ever download anything it´s just to check the music to find out if it´s worth buying. If it has an amazing cover I usually get it anyway hahaha you know, I think if they made a cool booklet to every release, like Ultimae does (bless 'em!), I'm sure more people (suckers for art like you (and me, as a fan for booklets ) would buy the releases... Start producing cool booklets! I'm saying this since 3 years! When will label heads finally wake up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abasio Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 dude, if download groups didn't exist I'd still not have this fucking "new" S-Range album that is STILL NOT RELEASED () and I would have gone *insert pic of atom bomb explosion* already a long time ago! I'll be forever thankful for that. Yes, arrest me now, I will still be fucking thankful! HAIL JFK TEAM! Damn it! F*kin' sh*ttin' freakin' DAMN IT! *booom!* But you wouldn't know what you were missing & when it came out you'd buy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D3lirious Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 you know, I think if they made a cool booklet to every release, like Ultimae does (bless 'em!), I'm sure more people (suckers for art like you (and me, as a fan for booklets ) would buy the releases... Start producing cool booklets! I'm saying this since 3 years! When will label heads finally wake up? Yeah, Im all with you on this one If they make em so sweet that you want to nail it on your bedroom wall, I think they will sell more for sure No, but seriously... Cool design is an important part of the package, atleast for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abasio Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 Yeah, Im all with you on this one If they make em so sweet that you want to nail it on your bedroom wall, I think they will sell more for sure No, but seriously... Cool design is an important part of the package, atleast for me. and for me! I love the whole package & cool artwork makes it all the more important. I love the artwork on ultimae's releases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTP Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 But you wouldn't know what you were missing & when it came out you'd buy it.what? no, it's not about the fact that I would not have knowh what I would have missed ... I'd have been going *insert atom bomb* if I wouldn't have gotten that album, so I wouldn't have cared what I would miss, I'd just have been seriously pissed off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reger Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 that's all very poetic and romantic, but reality works differently man. Even if you do offer people a centralized web portal were they could, in theory, purchase all the music they wanted, they still won't buy, beacuse it's already available for free... why the fuck, am i gonna spend money on something when i can get for free? The people that buy music in this scene very often feel no sense of attachment to files. This off course, does not stop anyone from downloading, because... it's free and that's an unbeatable price. Morals, that certainly has not worked, because we don't really feel like it's a big deal, not even when I download the spare DIVX movie here and there. so what's the solution? i have no idea, i wrecked my brain to find it for far too long to care much about it these days. Let's see where it takes us, bottom line is distributors have finally started to get a grip about things, and in the end that might tighten quality control a bit, it might not... sales are way down anyway, but the music keeps coming out... my personal theory is, someone is using it this setup for laundering... but i'm afraid i've said too much solution - artists/labels release their stuff on p2p/torrents aswell, ofcourse as 320mp3 at first, and people who like that music donate to artists account, as much as they think would be fair only problem - people have to evolve to such level where they could be able to go and donate for a p2p release. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumballs Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 outside of psy, when it comes to artists who already have it made and are rich as a donkeys asshole, then i say its fair game to download the shit. but also, if it werent for the internet and downloading any psy album, i wouldnt have found out about ANY PSY AT ALL also, i think its about the music. not the money. that means that a true artist into the MUSIC does now care about the fuckin money they make, but about how many people are moveed by their work. that should be the greatest reward. if they cared about the money, they would pull an infected mushroom. and bitch about wanting to make movie soundtracks and shit. and move to hollywood. and get a boner for madonna... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowball Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 I find it amazing that ppl rip and upload whole albums they purchased so others can download. They dont get back anything,they just do it out of generosity. Even if it sucks for A LOT of reasons,piracy has its romantic side too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Time_Trap Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 I find it amazing that ppl rip and upload whole albums they purchased so others can download. They dont get back anything,they just do it out of generosity. Even if it sucks for A LOT of reasons,piracy has its romantic side too. Yes, it's called sharing & spreading good music If I want to introduce someone to e.g IDM I won't tell him 'hey go buy that and that and that' , I will just tell him instead 'hey get this one from my share list in DC++, it rules', and if he likes it chances are he will buy something too ;} Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slyman604 Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 i responded to this on isra "75% plus of tracks released easily have stolen software used to make them. go to the prodution forum, everyone uses waves plugins, 1000 bucks easy for it. most flyers are probly made using a stolen version of photoshop. alot of visuals are made with stolen video software. the only thing thats not pirated in this scene are parties. really, who cares?" personally i dont buy cds at all. i dont even think listening to psy at home is much fun. i download more or less to see whats good that i would like to hear live. everyone bitches about this and takes this stupid moral highground about cd buying, the big artists make more than enough money for playing parties. its all about the parties, everything else is just promotion for parties IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 so can i safely assume you arent much of a buyer but more of a downloader ?I've only ever downloaded to see if I like something. I'm in the 'downloaded music sounds crap compared to CD's' camp but, anyway, that's another topic altogether. You asked - will you buy an album from your local music store if its availble for half the price compared to online shops ?Maybe I didn't understand the question but it sounded like you were asking would I buy an album from a local store if it was half the online price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abasio Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 Maybe I didn't understand the question but it sounded like you were asking would I buy an album from a local store if it was half the online price. ...and would you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alleycat Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 I care very little for morals, or anything, and I have no illusions that downloading takes money away from the artist, they get so little for releases anyway. As I said on Isra, the bottom line to me is respect. I feel its disrespectful to take others' work and spread it without their permission. I always use an analogy like this; If you were at a party, and you sparked up a nice spliff, and passed it to another guy, and that guy took it and shared it with everyone else at the party, Id feel used, disrespected, possibly angry, and Id probably have a negative opinion about the guy. I know, as someone on Isra said, that with mp3s you don't lose what you had, as they're copies. But to me its a respect thing. I dont feel comfortable with that. I know a few artists myself, and they're great people. It doesn't seem very friend-like to take their stuff. Also, sound quality is very important to me, especially for playing out live. There's no way in hell Im going to play an mp3 alongside cd audio. I know, you may say, you can't tell, the audible freqencies are preserved. But there's more than just hearing involved! Those low inaudible bass frequencies can be felt. And who knows, maybe htey stimulate certain brain waves... (Im another one of those, CHarlie! And it was thanks to a certain altered state that the stark differences became crystallinely apparent.) I can't even imagine playing downloaded stuff, live... Making money of downloaded stuff, like that Russian site that got sued, thats just beyond low. One thing that never ceases to make me chuckle is how angry some downloaders get, how up-in-arms they get about their 'right' to download. Now, as I said I care little for morals. I care about respect, and showing my love for the music and the global scene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindphilux Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 piracy is a touchy subject for me. why someone wouldn't want to own the actual release is beyond me. i guess having a proper release means little to some. my feelings on it have always been that if you won't buy the CD, then you have no right to call yourself a fan. So what if the artist gets very little of what you're paying? Do you think that justifies you breaking the law? You wonder why some artists who are amazing disappear and can't seem to ever release anything. Its because people like you don't give them their dues and now they can't afford to pursue their dream anymore. Of course this isn't directed towards anyone.. just how i feel about piracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goa Bill Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 +1 on what Basilisk said. This Psy-Space kinda hybrid could work really well. @RAH, you are doing a holy job but the only problem with your site is that most of the people that like the music you put on prefer downloading it for free. Those labels usually out out very limited editions anyways (300 copies or less). People that actually buy music are people that were buying before the digital age (25 + ) hence people that mostly started collecting back in the Goa days, and unfortunately many of those stuck there and prefer to shell out many $ on obscure copy from the mid 90's than on a new release. I do understand them and i do agree that if somebody will beat the current equation he'll need to put out a site that will have a wide spectrum and that will have the support of "majors". And when i say majors i mean Hom-Mega, Twisted, Iboga, BNE etc, and what's even more important for a decent price. And decent meaning LESS than the physical release. Another very very important thing i'd like to add is that in artist's perspective they never did and they never will earn much money from CD sales. Even the mainstream artists earn big percent of their income from live gigs. This weekend there was an interview with Infected Mushroom on a major newspaper here and Duvdev mentioned that despite they sold over 200 000 copies of all their albums they never really got much money from it. Their biggest source of income is their Live Gigs. Duvdev even explicitly allowed the readers to go and to download their new albums cause the only one that cares is their label. So if a major player like IM don't earn shit from CDs than no hope for the small ones. Which boils it all down to a proper promotion really. My 3 cents As a personal note, i personally download a few new psy releases that i think i might like, and if i do like i go and buy. As for those that work extra time to buy some rare piece from Ebay, well you are #$@%. And double that if you think it actually helps the scene in any way. i responded to this on isra "75% plus of tracks released easily have stolen software used to make them. go to the prodution forum, everyone uses waves plugins, 1000 bucks easy for it. most flyers are probly made using a stolen version of photoshop. alot of visuals are made with stolen video software. the only thing thats not pirated in this scene are parties. really, who cares?" personally i dont buy cds at all. i dont even think listening to psy at home is much fun. i download more or less to see whats good that i would like to hear live. everyone bitches about this and takes this stupid moral highground about cd buying, the big artists make more than enough money for playing parties. its all about the parties, everything else is just promotion for parties IMO. Some truth in that as well. The parties here always have infiltrates, so you can pirate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alleycat Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 and you have to wonder, how many artists quit because they saw their crappy sales but still heard their stuff all over the place. I know Id be discouraged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jikkenteki Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 you know, I think if they made a cool booklet to every release, like Ultimae does (bless 'em!), I'm sure more people (suckers for art like you (and me, as a fan for booklets ) would buy the releases... Start producing cool booklets! I'm saying this since 3 years! When will label heads finally wake up? I agree with you that cool booklets are, .....well, cool. However from a label's perspective going from a 4 page to even just an 8 page booklet in full color is a fairly serious jump in printing price (close to 50% more at most places I have looked into). On "The Long Walk Home" we bit the bullet and did full color and more that the standard 4 page jackets and the jacket/back card printing alone cost me almost $900 for 1000 copies. (To compare we can print a full 1000 copies of a complete single disc release CD, with cases, 4p jackets, back cards, shrink wrapping and everything for about $1000.) While the results were artistically satisfying for me, doing that also means that, in today's market, I will probably never earn back what it cost me to print the album. While printing cool booklets is a great idea and increases how "sell-able" the release may be, for most labels adding those extra pages crosses the line between having a chance of recouping your production costs and having no prayer of doing so. With that said, I think most labels could definitely do a whole lot more even with the 4 pages they are using already as most releases I buy now are practically empty inside. No interesting text, nothing much new art wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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