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Ormion

Do you think psytrance newcomers find old school goa outdated?

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Ormion    434

So as a part of relistening my entire collection (yes I'm still doing that) I revisited Sandman-Witchcraft. The first thing that came to my mind is how much futuristic does it sound despite being 22 years old.

Coincidentally the latest cd I bought, the new Deck Wizards features a new Sandman track that unsurprisingly it's lame full on.

So I'm wondering if the newcomers in goa/psy, people who missed the old days find old school goa outdated, despite in some cases sounding more modern.

What do you think?

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AstralSphinx    110

I think it boils down to familarity in most cases, if they've mostly heard full-on and perhaps went to some event playing that style, then I suppose goa could sound quite different and perhaps antiquated in some aspects. But it's a difficult question really, since there is full-on which on a surface level resembles goa quite a lot. And vice versa of course, new school goa with lots of full on elements.

So I guess it depends a lot on what goa albums they happen to get exposed to for the first time. I think like you that a lot of the old goa has enduring qualities, but I can totally understand if people new to the genre don't agree. And also another factor is if the goa is remastered or not.

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recursion loop    540

I'm not exactly a newcommer but many of 90's goa does sound dated to me due to very simplistic production - I understand it was the bleeding edge music technology back in the days but today it sounds too basic.

In terms of production my favourite period was 2006 (Protoculture - Circadians) to 2014 (E-Clip - Into The Void), when people were mostly using digital hardware synths like  Access Virus and Nordlead - these synths did have some charatcer the todays software mostly lacks - but the arrangement and mixing was done in a DAW and  wasn't limited by hardware sequencers and 8 channel mixers.

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Oopie    174

Drop them 'Mahadeva' for proper education.

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technosomy    278
3 hours ago, Oopie said:

Drop them 'Mahadeva' for proper education.

OMG that's gold!
 

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Bartzabel    44

What's gold is the fact that this scene was built in the back of murderous ex-military Israelites &  has-been hippies abusing the seemingly liberal lifestyle afforded to them by a poverty stricken nation desperate for the money they brought, with not a care to the devastation this scene has caused to the people of Goa & India over the decades.
 

Furthermore misusing religious prayers & symbols with drug abused while claiming its for enlightenment when it's just an excuse to drop chemicals and become wankers.

This scene was and still is the ultimate in religious & culture theft for the abuse in the name of drug abuse. 
 

You're all delusional if you deny this. The majority of real Indian people absolutely despise what the scene in Goa did to them. But white folk always take what they want with little care for others and their cultures.

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Ormion    434
13 hours ago, recursion loop said:

I'm not exactly a newcommer but many of 90's goa does sound dated to me due to very simplistic production - I understand it was the bleeding edge music technology back in the days but today it sounds too basic.

In terms of production my favourite period was 2006 (Protoculture - Circadians) to 2014 (E-Clip - Into The Void), when people were mostly using digital hardware synths like  Access Virus and Nordlead - these synths did have some charatcer the todays software mostly lacks - but the arrangement and mixing was done in a DAW and  wasn't limited by hardware sequencers and 8 channel mixers.

 What about the writing aspect instead of the production values like proper mastering, better overall sound etc?

For example would a newcomer find Pleiadians-IFO or Family Of Light outdated compared to a new Pleiadians track like this?

I can understand a very basic Goa track from 1994, I too find most of them outdated to be honest, but something like old Sandman for example sound pretty modern, production excluded.

But since my first love was old school Goa I'm obviously biased, that's why I'm curious.

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technosomy    278
11 hours ago, Bartzabel said:

What's gold is the fact that this scene was built in the back of murderous ex-military Israelites &  has-been hippies abusing the seemingly liberal lifestyle afforded to them by a poverty stricken nation desperate for the money they brought, with not a care to the devastation this scene has caused to the people of Goa & India over the decades.
 

Furthermore misusing religious prayers & symbols with drug abused while claiming its for enlightenment when it's just an excuse to drop chemicals and become wankers.

This scene was and still is the ultimate in religious & culture theft for the abuse in the name of drug abuse. 
 

You're all delusional if you deny this. The majority of real Indian people absolutely despise what the scene in Goa did to them. But white folk always take what they want with little care for others and their cultures.

clearly you know nothing, and never been to goa so be gone with you

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AstralSphinx    110

This outdated??

:lol: Intense stuff. Pavel you outdid yourself this time, such a realistic hologram.

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if you listen to Etnica - Mystical Appearance In Goa as a newcomer, im pretty certain you will think it sounds bland, empty, and kinda simple. Definitely outdated.

But at the same token, if you listen to Mahadeva like oopie mentioned or say Fluoro Neuro Sponge - both from the same year, I think noone can say it sounds outdated.

edit: or i mean ofc they can, but i wouldnt agree with them :) 

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AstralSphinx    110

On a more serious note and on-topic, I think the examples provided by AP here proves a point. Namely, that if those older tracks by Astral Projection and Hallucinogen would sound dated to people new to the genre, then I would I assume that all the people who attend their live shows must be old nostalgic goa veterans? Well it turns out that's anything but true. I've seen it myself at Hallucinogen live a couple of years ago, plenty of younger people attending and people with no real connection to the old school era, more than what they might've heard on youtube/spotify and on the abovementioned type of live shows. And everyone seemed to enjoy the music and danced to it. Usually though I think these acts play as headline on big festivals/parties, so in most cases it's not the artist/group in question that people might attend the festival for, it's just a bonus or a plague perhaps. Depending on what they might think about the old music. 

And this makes me reflect on something, does Astral Projection and Hallucinogen play remastered versions of their classic works? Or have they stood the test of time relatively well, so they sound OK even by todays standards on the big sound systems of this era? I personally think a lot of the old stuff will not sound very good soundwise if played on the same party as full-on/progg etc, as they have less pronounced bass and a bit more messy mixes with lots of layers and often lacks the clarity that todays technology provides, so that it can sound a bit dated compared to the modern stuff on a big system.

For home listening I don't think it's such a big deal. But yeah on a party it depends on the context, if it's a pure old school festival, then it will blend well with the rest. And I also think it requires a bit more from the organizer/sound guys to adjust their sound system so that it sounds as good as possible for the old school sound. Unfortunately the sound sucks at most venues I've been to, so in that regard the modern music will always have the upper hand if new and old styles are played at the same venue.

I have a good example kinda fresh in memory, I attended a live gig here in Sweden where X-Dream and Pleiadians played old school sets. And I think modern psy-trance, full-on/progg was played at the same night as well by DJ's or perhaps some other artists. I do think the sound was quite messy when X-Dream played, if that was due to the old nature of the tracks on hand, or due to the sound guys/venue messing up, or a combination of both, or perhaps the artist/group tried to compensate with the EQ live, and didn't have good feedback from someone who could listen how it sounded to the crowd. Whatever the case I don't know, but it was very noticeable and distracting nonetheless.

This sound dilemma is something I think most artists today who incorporate their older tracks into their live-sets, solve by making remixes of their old tracks, Infected Mushroom for example. Because they know that their old tracks will stick out like a sore thumb if played alongside their new tracks.

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On 7/26/2020 at 1:10 PM, AstralSphinx said:

does Astral Projection and Hallucinogen play remastered versions of their classic works? Or have they stood the test of time relatively well, so they sound OK even by todays standards on the big sound systems of this era?

Correct, they are timeless :)

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fluorosis    13

"The myth of progress"
It's just changing fashions. There's been no linear "development" of the musical genre and it's sub-genres. The attention span of a fruit fly leads to jumping around willy-nilly with no regard towards developing, deepening, enriching existing themes, but just wholesale replacement with a "new" equally vapid superficial "style".

People say they like this or that genre, rather than enjoying the work of a thoughtful artist across a spectrum of styles.

It's all a bit sad that way, actually. A bunch of template-copy-cats pretending that their new template supercedes intelligent thoughtful structures.

There's absolutely no reason to discount music of an entire decade due to 'stylistic' faddish "clothing", IMO

 

My guess is that some 90's psychedelic trance would sound rather alternative to many of the cookie-cutter modern sounds, especially to ears that never had heard it before.

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1997 was a good year, Demention is probably the best one that year, but that spot is so busy it changes every time i think about it..

the quality in mixing and mastering is by todays standard still superb. Which is why id say this is timeless stuff here, and should transcend year/time/generation whatever.

 

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AstralSphinx    110
1 hour ago, astralprojection said:

1997 was a good year, Demention is probably the best one that year, but that spot is so busy it changes every time i think about it..

the quality in mixing and mastering is by todays standard still superb. Which is why id say this is timeless stuff here, and should transcend year/time/generation whatever.

 

I agree, the interesting thing would be to hear what the new generation of party goers in this scene thinks. :) Anyone here who belongs to that category? If so what do you think about Hallucinogen - Twisted, and Hallucinogen - The Lone Deranger albums? The composition/storytelling of the old classics is timeless to me. But hey I might just suffer from nostalgia. :D 

Yesterday I did something I hadn't done in a long while, instead of putting on an audiobook when going to bed I put on some classic Hallucinogen tracks like Gamma Goblin pt 2 etc and turned of the lights and closed my eyes. Beautiful journeys to be had still with that music. So many textures and details, and interesting progression in each track.

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That's awesome :D

I keep going back to gamma goblins 2 also, whenever I'm in need of a good journey. That track is truly timeless I think noone could refute that! I did really like cptn hooks sort of rendition of the gamma goblins style in that one track of his. As far as modern sound goes, it sounds really good! 

 

And yes hearing from someone else, preferably a newcomer, regarding the tracks us old heads say are timeless would be very interesting. :)

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Trunksan    87

I think a lot of Goa, acid trance and early techno/electronica require a certain maturity and acquaintance with electronic music in order to be appreciated.

When I started going to gigs in the early 2000s, still a teenager, I preferred the "easier'/"more easily digestible" banging stuff like full-on and dark psy (what was dark then). With the years passing and growing (both in terms of age and music knowledge) my preferences changed. 
I think the same would apply to most people. More complex music requires a more complex/sophisticated brain.

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*clears throat*

\begin{rant}

So, these days, psytrance = something like vini vici or armin van buuren :D  Real talk, just search for "modern psytrance" - I can't distinguish between any of them, there's nothing unique, it's always the same shit. That shit ain't got nada to do with psy. I mean, if they can pay their bills and make ends meet, sure, whatever, more power to em, but that shit ain't for me. Of course old school goa trance sounds dated. It's not bland and monotonous with the same god damn "kick" and slight variation to melody, if any is present in the first place - most likely some cheesy uplifting synth, hear it so often. I'm sure there are nowadays a few legit artists making legit psy, but I'm sticking to what I know - that is goa from 90s and early 2000s. God forbid someone dares to openly criticise this clowning that's going on in the psy scene right now.

Funnily enough, I wouldn't have a problem with it, if they just called their generic crap something else and not Psytrance. It IS a semantics issue and it's not at the same time. You can't just make psy look bad like that.. you just can't!

\end{rant}

 

 

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Dolmot    177
44 minutes ago, psychedelic chipmunk said:

\begin{rant}

Are you ranting in TeX? I appreciate that. :D

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AstralSphinx    110
5 hours ago, psychedelic chipmunk said:

*clears throat*

\begin{rant}

So, these days, psytrance = something like vini vici or armin van buuren :D  Real talk, just search for "modern psytrance" - I can't distinguish between any of them, there's nothing unique, it's always the same shit. That shit ain't got nada to do with psy. I mean, if they can pay their bills and make ends meet, sure, whatever, more power to em, but that shit ain't for me. Of course old school goa trance sounds dated. It's not bland and monotonous with the same god damn "kick" and slight variation to melody, if any is present in the first place - most likely some cheesy uplifting synth, hear it so often. I'm sure there are nowadays a few legit artists making legit psy, but I'm sticking to what I know - that is goa from 90s and early 2000s. God forbid someone dares to openly criticise this clowning that's going on in the psy scene right now.

Funnily enough, I wouldn't have a problem with it, if they just called their generic crap something else and not Psytrance. It IS a semantics issue and it's not at the same time. You can't just make psy look bad like that.. you just can't!

\end{rant}

 

 

Well I agree but, it didn't connect really to the question of the threads topic. :P

 "Do you think psytrance newcomers find old school goa outdated?"

We allready know that many of us on this forum are old school goa heads. And that Vini Vici is rather boring music. ;) 

 

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1 hour ago, AstralSphinx said:

Well I agree but, it didn't connect really to the question of the threads topic. :P

 "Do you think psytrance newcomers find old school goa outdated?"

 

Fair enough. My point is that newcomers are more likely to be exposed to the newer sound. Combined with mass mania, en masse, they likely will not like old school sound. Hence, the median response is "old school goa is outdated". I might have made some (cynical) leaps somewhere, hence I emphasised it's a rant :D ..I clearly feel very strongly about this topic :P

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Multi-Media    23

Well if they only know Armin, Vini Vici etc. which is now some kind of big thing I noticed (guess it has more attention then even back in the late 90ties when there was a good output of good music and bigger festivals started) then they will not recognize I guess that eg. Hallucinogen,MWN or BBC etc. is Psytrance at all. Well tradionell it is still goa anyway...but this would be the same with modern "industrial". Seems Metal for example there it is not so much the case even "new metal" could do nothing to old metal classix and even new metal people would recognize eg. Obituary as Deathmetal and Judas Priest as Heavy/Hardrock

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acid-brain    122

As a relative youngling and goa newcomer who only discovered the genre slightly over 10 years ago, everything that was said above rings true.

Sandman - Witchcraft is an excellent choice for an album that sounds more fresh and engaging than other goa releases. Most of the other albums that caught my ear in a similar way are probably better classified as psy: Pigs In Space, Koxbox Dragon Tales, COP, late 90's X-Dream. A track like "Fairy in The Dragonforest" sounds like a more evolved version of classic goa trance, with much better rhythm section! Ultimately it leads to a debate into exactly where "old school goa" ends and psy begins, and nobody wants another one of those.

A lot of stuff that gets rave reviews here, took me years to understand because of the dated production. Early Juno Reactor, Etnica, Koxbox - Forever After (especially compared to Dragon Tales). Over time I've come to appreciate it all, it just took perseverance.

And then there's the stuff that just sounds "of it's time". While I enjoy MWNN or Power Source's tracks for instance, most of them really do sound like mid-90's trance hits. Which seems like a dumb thing to say, because that's exactly what they are, but compare to a track like Tandu's Alien Pump or Sandman's G-Force and there's no contest. Somehow, there's a small number of goa tracks that just stand out as electrifying today, and when I play them to my electronic music loving friends, they can't believe the date they were created.

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