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I always expect to find psychedelic / psytrance people as more thoughtful / more independent minded / more de-conditioned. But this is defiantly not the case. Not by a long shot IMHO. If anything this psy-culture seems to almost exert the opposite of diverse individual thought, and de-conditioning, and enforce a collectivist "we are all one" "crazy party" cattle like mentality, with simply a flare of neon colors / "live and let live" unless they A B or C type folk. It does make people very "passionate" however about their personal view. Does it open people's minds? No, i've not noticed that at all.

 

It seems on this forum people are also conforming to a leftist type persuasion, generally rally around a single viewpoint: non-conservative if not anti.

 

Psychedelics while they should de-condition people from their social organizations, do not seem to be having that effect. I wonder why? Do psychedelics truly decondition people? Is the only result of psychedelics in the western modern civilization a hippie woodstock chaos? Or are party people just not really psychedelic? Perhaps not really serious in this "psy" thing at all?

 

They make art, they paint pictures, they make music, they wear colorful clothing, but that seems to be where it ends. Some will do burning man type stuff, but while i've been to regional burns and met maybe 1 guy who said he was republican, i've never been to the big one in Nevada for comparison. Kinda figure a conservative straight guy won't fit in there!

 

Are psychedelics just creating a form of radicalism and rebellion?

 

If so why do we not see psychedelic people rebel against psychedelic culture, which seems to have as rigid an ideology as any other?

 

If you do take psychedelics as a means to reduce your ego / conditioning, or some sort of health issue, does that make you a humble quiet and thoughtful considerate or forgiving person? Or does that make you Tim Leary with his famous picture showing everyone the middle finger?

 

Sure u can say "fuck you" and flick people off, and I've done it too, as there is a time for that. But is that really the essence of this "culture". Just shock people and be weird?

 

Is there any relation between psytrance culture and shamanic traditions whatsoever? Does anything between them create a common source of personal integrity or honor?

 

I recall in the regional burn I went to a few times near Austin TX, the motto was "fuck shit up".

 

When I threw parties, I was trying to organize a sort of spiritual or intellectual type of thing, but I found most my friends resented this, just wanted to "fuck shit up" with loud music and drugs. But were they interested in shamanic healing or concepts? Not so much.

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MrAnarchy    221

Psychedelics while they should de-condition people from their social organizations, do not seem to be having that effect. I wonder why? Do psychedelics truly decondition people? Is the only result of psychedelics in the western modern civilization a hippie woodstock chaos? Or are party people just not really psychedelic? Perhaps not really serious in this "psy" thing at all?

 

Psychedelics do to you what you want them to do to you. I did acid dozen of times and since then I am a completely diffrent person. I criticize everything and am very skeptical since then. I was 17 when I did it the first time and it is around that time I started reading my favorite writer Nietzche as you can see in the description. The energy of youth, acid and that very heavy anarchistic philosophy had a great toll on me. I started having many problems with authority in highschool and other students. The biggest problem Im having since Ive done psychedelics is that I know Im a hypocrite. I have these great ideas of true freedom, where we shatter all these bubbles of bullshit that we create for ourselves. But the problem is that Im too lazy, comfortable and scared to make a true devotion to my thoughts and philosophy. In this sentence Nietzsche is adressing people like me "Alas, there are so many great thoughts which do no more than a bellows: they puff up and make emptier."

 

My point is, it is hard to rebel. Be it against a music scene or the system (that was so cheesy). And many people do drugs just to have fun. To tickle their senses and that is all. Which is fine too.

 

Also, my ego got bigger (which I think is a positive thing) after using acid even though I did experience ego death during one of the trips. How can you be great if you dont become ashes first, right?

 

Today psy-trance isn't that connected to the anti-culture movement like it used to during the 90's. You shouldnt make a connection between people who use acid and listen to psy to rebellion anymore even if it is true for some. Now psy trance is just about music and nothing else.

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Padmapani    377

It seems on this forum people are also conforming to a leftist type persuasion, generally rally around a single viewpoint: non-conservative if not anti.

times near Austin TX, the motto was "fuck shit up".

the psy scene is the spiritual successor to the hippies of the 60s and 70s. obviously freedom, love, peace, individualism and hedonism are commonly found values and many people have little respect for mainstream society. of course psychedelics can also nudge you into that direction by making you realize that violence and inequality are pointless...

conservatism is all about preserving traditional values of mainstream society, placing more value on businesses and money than individual people, waging war if it's economically or stategically reasonable, law&order, enforcing social hierarchies and social norm as well as being generally sceptical about change/all things foreign. so conflict with the psy scene is inevitable.

 

over here the psy scene is mostly older party people roughly around 25-30 (many "retire" from other scenes with harder music, more drugs and/or wilder, often illegal parties.), so you'll have lots of people who are beyond the age when they think they'll change the world. you rather have people who want to escape the shitty, conservative world full of injustice and responsibilities and just have fun for a weekend without worries. psytrance and psy parties are great of putting you into an imaginary alternate reality.

i don't know if that's what you mean by "fucking shit up" or if psy parties fill a gap because you don't have aforementioned harder/wilder parties in your area.

 

 

shamanic healing cocepts at parties? we actually have that (along with non-smoking, all-vegan and no-shoes-dancing) but it's (thankfully) a minority program. all that esoteric stuff only become popular in the 80s with the new age movement. thus it's not an integral part of the of the original hippie culture the psy scene often draws its insipiration from. of course esoteric stuff is still rampant, but a large part of the psy community is simply not into that sort of thing.

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Paul Eye    451

Today psy-trance isn't that connected to the anti-culture movement like it used to during the 90's. You shouldnt make a connection between people who use acid and listen to psy to rebellion anymore even if it is true for some. Now psy trance is just about music and nothing else.

Not really rebellious or anti-culture, that I can (mostly) agree with. Still, the scene is as much about drugs today as it's ever been. It's kind of an inevitable part.

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The only thing I regret about being a "psy person" is the time I was doing drugs and all that trouble that followed with it. W/e, I've been clean for years now, attending uni and doing lots of other "normal person" stuff. Where I live [Estonia] it's not really "socially acceptable" to be open: people just think you are weird/clingy and conjure up other (ridiculous) prejudices about someone they don't even know. I used to share that view, until I went to live in Australia for a while. There was a psytrance fest called "The Rainbow Serpent", where I met a lot of people I could relate to/connect with.

Not sure if being into goa makes me a "psy person", but I still feel isolated in Estonia: no psytrance communities [goes back to what I was explaining earlier about it not being socially acceptable to be open about even your preferences], let alone parties, though, I'm not really about that life. The only way I can function at a party is if I'm high/drunk but don't want anything to do with that any longer.

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Imba    313

just wanted to "fuck shit up" with loud music and drugs. But were they interested in shamanic healing or concepts? Not so much.

 

 

There you go... most people i met are like this. Bla bla bla while stoned, they sleepover and forget what they 'fighting' for.

 

 

Loads of people i met on festivals dont know a single performer and simply dont care. They are not there for music, they choose it as holidays instead of going to sea or lake, they come to festival doing some workshop and relaxing.

 

 

Being 'psy people' aka 'hippie' is fancy, trendy... get some fluo clothes, light some nag champa and joint, getting fucked up on drugs, make a lot 'anti-system' noise and after nothing, just sitting there wasted tripping some PLUR, go extreme on non hippies and non vegans (they are not humans!) - there you go, in short lol

 

Or as my friend said - Colorful Fascism

 

 

There are good people yes, but mostly... and yeah these that 'killed ego'... LOL! They have 100x more than before, utopian shit... its FANCY to be psypeople

 

 

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Convoolio    0

I was fully into the RSA Cape town scene and must have gone to somewhere between 15 and 25 parties.  I thought I would never grow out of trance parties, but I could and did.    Miss the dancing and good music played over insanely large soundsystems.  The rest of the "psy-lifestyle" is nonsense (imo). Hell, I don't mind the excessive drug taking but at least pay for it yourself!

I still like the music, and discovered many of my favorite releases on this very forum.

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AiKyO    4

People often associate structure and discipline with rigidity and restriction, I think it's the perfect opposite. When those things are done right, they open endless doors, blissful ones - we are just traumatized by society very bad way of doing those things. Rave culture is full of contradiction, and there is a beauty in that of course, but still, it's carrying a lot of society bad habits and addiction. And even though it is more progressive than a lot of other things, we could take it further I think. At first the further looks like the psy-trance scene, because that's where it's more "spiritual" - less speed, more tribal alien gods; eventually I still feel we can get so much deeper (a basic thing is singing, we go to music festival but people rarely sing together. It's a beautiful thing I have seen the tremendous healing and bonding power in some Rainbow Gathering).

If you were to say "Well, there is going to be music, but we have to get you 'there' first, so there will be a ritual (in any form)", most people would freak out, be bored or go smoke their joint and yell for the music to start. Or if you say "Now, let's drop the music and integrate the two previous mix for a wee bit thirty minutes", and I don't know, other stuff that could be "spiritual or intellectual" (because i'm like: "let's represent the digestive psychic process in parties, let's get symbolical yo"). I'm sure we can find new way to structure the parties and make everyone interact, bring new meanings and horizon, make the parties "more" than just parties. Most people think those kind of structures will kill the "Good Time", they don't want to get heady or what, they just want to drop out. It's too bad, because if you accept to kill the Good Times, you get to the Sacred Time. That little dragonfly beyond death that sings with the cicadas ... 

Still, though I can see the downside of the psy-culture, I still think there's enough diversity for things to fluctuate. And a good amount of people see it as a place of transformation. When you get into meditation or martial art it's like this beautiful technology designed by ancestors of yours that make you rediscover yourself, and there is wisdom and balance soaking every inch of the stuff. There is this respect and gratitude that are inherent to the whole thing, and it's there in music culture too, but it can become more primordial. I think that's the spirit that psytrance needs to enhance, the ritual, more and more. Wasn't is supposed to be digital shamanism? 

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Mallenaut    16

From my point of view, it differs from place to place. Like in Israel, Trance people are pretty chill and are tend to be more diverse than the people in Western Europe. 

And, as someone stated before, conservatism and Trance don't really fit together. This loud dance music with weird noises, which works pretty well with psychoactive drugs, and parties all night long, especially in the early morning doesn't fit the 9-5 working reality, the life with a wife, a house and a 25-year loan, together in a world driven by consume. Also, the backwarded thinking 'What used to work in the past also works today' and 'Always listen to the authorities, with the highest of all being God' doesn't go together. 

 

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Hasheeshian    24
On 2017-12-08 at 1:28 AM, AiKyO said:

If you were to say "Well, there is going to be music, but we have to get you 'there' first, so there will be a ritual (in any form)", most people would freak out, be bored or go smoke their joint and yell for the music to start. Or if you say "Now, let's drop the music and integrate the two previous mix for a wee bit thirty minutes", and I don't know, other stuff that could be "spiritual or intellectual" (because i'm like: "let's represent the digestive psychic process in parties, let's get symbolical yo"). I'm sure we can find new way to structure the parties and make everyone interact, bring new meanings and horizon, make the parties "more" than just parties. Most people think those kind of structures will kill the "Good Time", they don't want to get heady or what, they just want to drop out. It's too bad, because if you accept to kill the Good Times, you get to the Sacred Time. That little dragonfly beyond death that sings with the cicadas ...

I've been to a few festivals here in Sweden which had opening ceremonies and even 15-30 minute ceremonies during Saturday evenings, held at the main stage. But I think much of the anti-structural elements is rooted in anti-dogmatism, which is also kindof necessary. Balancing structure with freedom and not imposing too strong beliefs on people can be hard, for me, hearing long spiritual, "cosmic", new age samples during songs can be pretty annoying - on the dancefloor I like to switch between some weird thing in my own head and connecting with new and old friends, and that's enough to handle without external messages about "what humans are" or what I should think. But yeah, therefore separate ceremonies seems like a pretty good idea. If one doesn't want to join, no problem.  

In general, I've had pretty varied experiences when it comes to the psy-community, but I've met many bright, beautiful people. For some reason my best experiences with people has been at festivals/raves deep in the forest, often with focus on darkpsy and forest, but that's surely individual and maybe different from country to country. I just can't help but suspecting uk fullon and prog attracts the kind of folks I don't get on that well with, atleast the spiritual-instagram-trendy ones. Not trying to put down any sub-genre or sub-culture, my partygoing has been limited to almost only Sweden and my first psy-rave was like two years ago.. The dark-crowds certainly has some less favorable elements as well.. ...like ketamine abuse  :P 

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AiKyO    4
7 minutes ago, Hasheeshian said:

I've been to a few festivals here in Sweden which had opening ceremonies and even 15-30 minute ceremonies during Saturday evenings, held at the main stage. But I think much of the anti-structural elements is rooted in anti-dogmatism, which is also kindof necessary. Balancing structure with freedom and not imposing too strong beliefs on people can be hard, for me, hearing long spiritual, "cosmic", new age samples during songs can be pretty annoying - on the dancefloor I like to switch between some weird thing in my own head and connecting with new and old friends, and that's enough to handle without external messages about "what humans are" or what I should think. But yeah, therefore separate ceremonies seems like a pretty good idea. If one doesn't want to join, no problem.  

But structures don't mean dogma. It's impossible to escape structures, our world is a network of highly complex structures. And highly complex structures allow "freedom" (whatever that means). 

Samples are words. Words constructed by the very societal construct we try to deconstruct. The difference between a sentence and a movement is immensely vast. Every form of ritual, meditation and all, are beyond language - or are body/eternal language. Getting into "that" structure, is the most freeing that can happen - in my experience. And you know, loud music with repetitive beats and patterns is an ideology in and of itself. But music is abstract, evocative. A good structure is like that. It lets you project yourself onto it and find things that you can relate to on a deep level, things you may no have known of. That is basically wisdom, it is guiding you. And this is present to an extent in psytrance event, maybe not enough. 

What I sort of mean is, we need a diversity of structures, but that means more structures. When a structure is organic however, it does not feel limiting but the very opposite. Limitations are expending. Some things are not bound by time ...

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Hasheeshian    24
1 hour ago, AiKyO said:

But structures don't mean dogma. It's impossible to escape structures, our world is a network of highly complex structures. And highly complex structures allow "freedom" (whatever that means). 

Samples are words. Words constructed by the very societal construct we try to deconstruct. The difference between a sentence and a movement is immensely vast. Every form of ritual, meditation and all, are beyond language - or are body/eternal language. Getting into "that" structure, is the most freeing that can happen - in my experience. And you know, loud music with repetitive beats and patterns is an ideology in and of itself. But music is abstract, evocative. A good structure is like that. It lets you project yourself onto it and find things that you can relate to on a deep level, things you may no have known of. That is basically wisdom, it is guiding you. And this is present to an extent in psytrance event, maybe not enough. 

What I sort of mean is, we need a diversity of structures, but that means more structures. When a structure is organic however, it does not feel limiting but the very opposite. Limitations are expending. Some things are not bound by time ...

Interesting and valid points! The ceremonies I attended didn't feel dogmatic or ideological but unifying and welcoming.

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Padmapani    377
On 10 December 2017 at 9:13 PM, Hasheeshian said:

Balancing structure with freedom

if structure has to be balanced with freedom to exist, then fuck structure.

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Hasheeshian    24
On 2017-12-16 at 1:34 AM, Padmapani said:

if structure has to be balanced with freedom to exist, then fuck structure.

But it's an ever-relevant task. Too much freedom is just chaos, structures are what we create to put meaning in that chaos. You always have to compromise, for example: the idea of PLUR is a structure, with intent of creating a welcoming and free environment. But it's still a structure. Music also relies heavenly on balancing chaos (or freedom, creativity) and structure, the artist is free to make any decision but often relies on some kind of structural backbone (like basic genres, scales, tempos etc) - and that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's about recognizing and adapting patterns we see "work" and perhaps sacrificing a bit of freedom to use and further evolve them. 

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Luminon    1

There are majority leftists on the forum? Well, I would be an exception then. I am nearly everything, or was, and abandoned all that for good reasons. I am the process and I am thorough. Conservatism is something I have acquired and did not abandon yet, if I ever will. There is nothing anti-system about being a leftist, haven't been for generations. All that the system needed was to take over schools, teach false economics, burden students with debt and offer them free stuff from the government, paid by printed money (see the false economics). That's it, the left is the system now, if it ever wasn't. The individualism, white ethnic in-group preference, having borders, low to no taxes, acceptance of economic disparity (in private sector), and some tongue-in-cheek racism, that's the new counter-culture. And I much appreciate Hasheeshian's remark, there is no freedom, only inside structures (such as the European-type civilization, that used to be a nice structure). Outside structures there is nothing to support you, inside there is some freedom and some restriction. The the more free you want to be from the cultural and political structures, the more structure you must have inside yourself, or you fail. Freedom is pretty much the same thing as discipline. You have as much freedom as you are disciplined. Freedom without discipline is license, or licentiousness, hence the liberals. 

I am everything, and that means both spiritually hippy and intellectual, skeptical and reverent. While I don't care for ethnic wailing in music, I can appreciate the spiritual quotes. "We humans are..." I care about the rest of the sequence and can offer my investigations.
I've been born energy sensitive. I tell you, meditation is not just for relaxing. There are techniques to meditation (i.e. various yogas) that turn you into a live Alex Grey painting. His paintings are very accurate, although slightly cheesy (and he could stow that Obama pic). We are walking plasma reactors, of some kind. I've done it all, Shakti energy from above, Kundalini from below, a few other things that don't have a catchy name yet, it's all real, though not all safe.

I could talk about myself more, in fact I did and deleted it, I did too much, it was getting awkward. I want to get to the important part. To join the Nietzsche club, there is no price too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. If you don't own yourself, you can't own anything else. You can't even love, because who is doing the loving? This is not some vanishing ego crap, you must always distinguish between the real ego death and just not owning, nor loving yourself. You can do backflips with the angels, you can hold the door for God. But unless you know, own and love yourself, none of your buffs will stack and you can tell goodbye to combos and synergy in your life. As Freud said, all you need is love and work. Work and love, and life is well spent. Love is a peculiar thing, because while you can fall in lust with a pretty... face, you can only love what you know, and what is virtuous. If you don't know yourself, you can't even accept love. And if you can't, off to the Jungian salt mines you go, and by salt I mean tears. Everything else can be taught, found, defined or envisioned, it's just stuff out there, been there, done that. But you, your soul, your true self, that's in a whole different league. As drab or unimpressive as it may seem, it's the whole difference between you having your bank card and someone else having it.

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Hasheeshian    24
12 hours ago, Luminon said:

To join the Nietzsche club, there is no price too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. If you don't own yourself, you can't own anything else. You can't even love, because who is doing the loving? This is not some vanishing ego crap, you must always distinguish between the real ego death and just not owning, nor loving yourself. You can do backflips with the angels, you can hold the door for God. But unless you know, own and love yourself, none of your buffs will stack and you can tell goodbye to combos and synergy in your life. As Freud said, all you need is love and work. Work and love, and life is well spent. Love is a peculiar thing, because while you can fall in lust with a pretty... face, you can only love what you know, and what is virtuous. If you don't know yourself, you can't even accept love. And if you can't, off to the Jungian salt mines you go, and by salt I mean tears. Everything else can be taught, found, defined or envisioned, it's just stuff out there, been there, done that. But you, your soul, your true self, that's in a whole different league. As drab or unimpressive as it may seem, it's the whole difference between you having your bank card and someone else having it.

God damn I couldn't have said it better myself. 

And regarding freedom: I think structures have to be balanced with an open mind. We don't want to get locked up in our own structures, but a "too open mind" won't do you much good either. I think we have to sacrifice some of our freedom (freedom to "do whatever we want to" atleast) when we find a goal worthy of pursuing, that's called dedication. But when we dedicate ourself to a purpose and it is one we've chosen ourself and feel is "true", we'll find ourself more free than ever. When we create something we create it from the chaos that is freedom, by making decisions based on our values and ideas. And to do this we must first trust ourselves, otherwise how would you know what decisions to make? :) 

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AiKyO    4
On 19/12/2017 at 12:40 AM, Luminon said:

Freedom is pretty much the same thing as discipline.

Pretty much that to me. People are traumatized by the stupid excessive and nonsensical discipline of modern society but sometime don't realize their concept of freedom has also been shaped by this very society. Getting wasted on the weekend and getting out of your head is very capitalist (I was actually shocked how much the rave culture is consumerist!). 

I have found this thread (:What are the Worst Thing about Psytrance and it's Culture? - 2013) and a lot of people state drug as one of the issues with the scene. But drug isn't an issue of the scene, it's an issue of the capitalist society we drag on - because we are not always so different we would like to be and we tend to enhance (sometimes in excess, excess being so freaking capitalist) those aspect. 

Drug use did not exist in most part of the world before colonialism and good occidental society brought them alcohol. So now some of you say i'll kill fun. Some of the fun has to die, some will live on - the chill, the craziness. I have seen people chilling without alcool, or even weed, "all you need is spirit and nothing", right? There's some truth to that. And that's why I don't consider psychedelics to be drugs, they reveal the spirit and have a certain way to do so - they also lead me to spirituality, the discipline and killed my drug addiction (soft but here), how could I consider them same as speed, alcohol, even MDMA to a point, etc? I can't.

Discipline is purposefulness (I join Hasheeshian here), where does your purpose comes from? What does it imply? For me it implies a sense of sacredness, it is why I was attracted toward the psytrance scene in the first place - and I gravitate toward Goa trance because it gets me into trance in no time, the goal was trance, shamanic trance and divine extasies at some point (right?). And that kind of music is super structured, it's very square but also very organically and crazy at the same time, and most importantly it get you there. There is a purpose. 

There is this sense of learning I find amazing in Goa, I find it back in martial art or meditation, from repetition, endless repetition, leading to endless variations, there is learning. I think those spirits are very much alike.

We have a whole world that is a strange balance between supreme seriousness and lousy fun - meanwhile our ancestors had discipline and were leaving a "freer" life in a highly sacred and wise way, and it did not meant dogma forcibly, just look at (their) mythology: it's weird, quirky, absurd, mystical, contradictory, poetic to the root, ... It escapes definition (but does so in a certain way), isn't that freedom? ... 

 

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Luminon    1
On 19. 12. 2017 at 1:13 PM, Hasheeshian said:

God damn I couldn't have said it better myself. 

And regarding freedom: I think structures have to be balanced with an open mind. We don't want to get locked up in our own structures, but a "too open mind" won't do you much good either. I think we have to sacrifice some of our freedom (freedom to "do whatever we want to" atleast) when we find a goal worthy of pursuing, that's called dedication. But when we dedicate ourself to a purpose and it is one we've chosen ourself and feel is "true", we'll find ourself more free than ever. When we create something we create it from the chaos that is freedom, by making decisions based on our values and ideas. And to do this we must first trust ourselves, otherwise how would you know what decisions to make? :) 

There's one recent quote I heard, that sums it up perfectly. "If you sell your soul for the devil's offer, think you will be the same person to enjoy the result?"

Yes, there is freedom from something, but once you are committed, there is for example the freedom to be with the one woman you love.

You also hint at the problem with religion. Atheists of 19th century destroyed religion, but they provided nothing that would promote family stability, sexual restraint and state integrity as much as religion. Also, by removing God or anything higher than human, human authority is the highest again. A Communist committee can take property and lives as they please, because they have the majority agreement and there is nothing higher than that, there is no God. Nietzsche correctly predicted that 20th century was going to be Bloodshed. I think we need God, the archetype of high-quality spirituality. But I think we aren't supposed to be LARPing ancient Middle East cultures. We need to really understand what they knew and rephrase it in today's modern knowledge. I tell you with all my future authority, spirituality is glorified plasma physics, but it won't make much sense to you, unless you experience something and have some theoretical background. This is not common knowledge. I think the present needs for average people are well served by Christianity plus Jordan Peterson's explanation.

 

8 hours ago, AiKyO said:

Pretty much that to me. People are traumatized by the stupid excessive and nonsensical discipline of modern society but sometime don't realize their concept of freedom has also been shaped by this very society. Getting wasted on the weekend and getting out of your head is very capitalist (I was actually shocked how much the rave culture is consumerist!). 

I have found this thread (:What are the Worst Thing about Psytrance and it's Culture? - 2013) and a lot of people state drug as one of the issues with the scene. But drug isn't an issue of the scene, it's an issue of the capitalist society we drag on - because we are not always so different we would like to be and we tend to enhance (sometimes in excess, excess being so freaking capitalist) those aspect. 

Drug use did not exist in most part of the world before colonialism and good occidental society brought them alcohol. So now some of you say i'll kill fun. Some of the fun has to die, some will live on - the chill, the craziness. I have seen people chilling without alcool, or even weed, "all you need is spirit and nothing", right? There's some truth to that. And that's why I don't consider psychedelics to be drugs, they reveal the spirit and have a certain way to do so - they also lead me to spirituality, the discipline and killed my drug addiction (soft but here), how could I consider them same as speed, alcohol, even MDMA to a point, etc? I can't.

Discipline is purposefulness (I join Hasheeshian here), where does your purpose comes from? What does it imply? For me it implies a sense of sacredness, it is why I was attracted toward the psytrance scene in the first place - and I gravitate toward Goa trance because it gets me into trance in no time, the goal was trance, shamanic trance and divine extasies at some point (right?). And that kind of music is super structured, it's very square but also very organically and crazy at the same time, and most importantly it get you there. There is a purpose. 

There is this sense of learning I find amazing in Goa, I find it back in martial art or meditation, from repetition, endless repetition, leading to endless variations, there is learning. I think those spirits are very much alike.

We have a whole world that is a strange balance between supreme seriousness and lousy fun - meanwhile our ancestors had discipline and were leaving a "freer" life in a highly sacred and wise way, and it did not meant dogma forcibly, just look at (their) mythology: it's weird, quirky, absurd, mystical, contradictory, poetic to the root, ... It escapes definition (but does so in a certain way), isn't that freedom? ... 

 

I don't think people are traumatized by excessive discipline. Discipline is an internal thing. If it comes from the outside, it's oppression and exploitation. Working men are exploited by taxes and by money printing. But we also have licentiousness and neglect. If you place infants in daycare, they will lack secure emotional attachment, they become very brittle, hysterical, unable to tolerate any disagreement. Then they get to college and we get kangaroo courts for not using fake pronouns. Freedom and discipline have not been tried yet. I don't think getting wasted is capitalist or not, alcoholism and hard drugs were much in use in socialist and national socialist regimes also, and the history of prohibition is complex. If you want capitalism, read on Capitalism and Protestant ethics by Max Weber, real capitalism (not cronyism) can be very sober and ascetic. Which I think is not healthy either. Just meet some real businessmen, not corporate employees, and ask if they are getting wasted, especially during a startup. We live in cronyism, not capitalism. I have even heard modern democracy called "participatory fascism", I think that fits. If cronyism is capitalism, then slaves picking cotton is gardening. 

Alcohol is a winter thing. We evolved to process alcohol, because it was a way to preserve fruit and sugar for winter and it also kills bacteria. Still other cultures ferment fruit, even monkeys do. But don't worry, other cultures retaliated against the evil colonialists with tobacco!
I don't know about psychedelics. I think we share all the aesthetics, but I don't see the spirit, I sense spirit. Touch sense. Spirit is the powerful electric plasma substance that I live with, that courses in my body. That plasma itself is mind-altering and has its seasons, its ebb and flow, a will of its own. I do my best to alter my mind, but with absolute control over my chemistry. I'm altering my baseline, not exploring the upper limits. It's about power, voltage, that I am able to attract and conduct without failure. If marijuana taught me anything, it's that I need to be perfectly sober to face the power out there, can't have any distractions. Just having the touch sense and no sight of the spirit cuts down on distractions a lot. Doesn't mean I never saw anything, or that I don't want to see more. 

I do have a purpose. Hell, I could become a known figure eventually. But I want to have marriage and children, for me that is the ultimate test of functionality as a person, creating the sacred home where new minds are created and released as arrows to launch at the specter of society. But first I need to fix my soul, a part is broken in there. I need to fix my etheric body, it's a mess in some areas. It physically hurts and burns, it can be nauseating and exhausting, like poison. Some of the chakras and meridians need a real overhaul, regularly. That's another reason I don't want psychedelics, no way I am doing such shenanigans with damaged equipment. Who knows what I will have access to once the equipment is fixed.

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AiKyO    4
10 hours ago, Luminon said:

You also hint at the problem with religion. Atheists of 19th century destroyed religion, but they provided nothing that would promote family stability, sexual restraint and state integrity as much as religion. Also, by removing God or anything higher than human, human authority is the highest again.

They may have killed religion but the offspring of Christianity have very well survived. I have a hard time not seeing the entire way we approach the psyche and the body as a result of two thousand years of Christianism, even science to a large extent is a natural follow up and it has certainly been raised to the rank of religion and is understood by many like a dogma.

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I don't think people are traumatized by excessive discipline. Discipline is an internal thing. If it comes from the outside, it's oppression and exploitation. Working men are exploited by taxes and by money printing.  

 That is actually something I wanted to get at too. Though I don't think any discipline that comes from the outside is oppression and exploitation, I certainly do think we live in a time were the structure that are deeply inside of us and those that we create  (have been created) outsides (generate into social construct) are tremendously at odds. This creates unbalance. But when inside and outside go in some form of accordance, in a little dance of their own, it flourishes. 

What is really weird today is that man has gotten some of his inside outside but in a material way, and a way that does not match the Outside (nature - which is also our deepest "Inside"), it's a sort of fake inside, culture, it does conserve some natural traits, but as off now it cannot dance with it. 

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I don't know about psychedelics. I think we share all the aesthetics, but I don't see the spirit, I sense spirit. Touch sense.

The spirit can get manifested into vision - I guess it's some sort of synesthesia, it is part of this "inside out" process to me, which I think is very healthy and much needed. Skipping it is like skipping digestion. It's like the "art of consciousness", which is really something we are estranged from nowadays - to live consciously and in awareness. 

Right now I would tend to say you sense the spirit through seeing because you see some things that reminds you the spirit is in all else (and for man's creation, some things more than other), some attributes, it can be a shape, and it evokes in you, it awakens the feeling of, the spirit. As you say, it in't distracting, but focusing. It strips things to their essence (does not mean refined), their naked self. 

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