Goannes Posted January 23, 2006 Author Share Posted January 23, 2006 There is also a bilogical part of trance Trance states also has something to do with bpm here is the quote that I ve also used in my ma “ . Typically performances start at the lower level and increase over a period of hours towards a higher level. 422360[/snapback] If I understand this correctly the amount of beats per minute isn't important, but what IS important is the encreasing of bpm in a period of time. Or is this about the frequencies? So to get the most out of state of trance in parties would be starting with music from 120 bpm build up over the night to music with 150 bpm? The ending of parties with progressive music neverthless, does the trick for me, and the bpm are lower than in the night... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goannes Posted January 23, 2006 Author Share Posted January 23, 2006 But to my knowledge mantra like sounds are much more repetetive and drone like than a melody that contain melodic patterns and variation such as in most "trance" at the moment? I even say that most old-school Goa tracks with the well known layers of melodies or the ethnic goa tracks with indian singing etc. also do not do the trick. Whereas most deep tribal trance such as a lot of the old australian trance on psy harmonics are the kind of trance that I in my opinion think do and did the trick. 422407[/snapback] It's true mantras are more repetitive than melodies in trance, because those melodies change during the track. But I dare to say that for example the melody in Shakta-Leptonhead is repeating itself in the same entrancing way mantras do. But I indeedly think the drum is the most important tool to get in trance and not melodies. You can do without the melodies, but not without the beat. The "sophisticated" human mind in 21st century however, needs a combination of both beat and melody to grasp the full aspect of trance. IMO that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatsu Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Again I want to say that I do not know more than you and do not at all consider msyelf an expert on this subject. I only write what I have read and also what my own "studies" into tribal music have shown me. 422392[/snapback] Yes, but this still means that you know more about it than I do. That wasn't meant to be sarcastic or anything, it's just a truth. I just want you to think about this just as I wrote to Charlie. Can you yourself say that on a unconsious level that it's the melodies or the rythms that put you into a state of trance? That's my whole point. I still claim that it is the rhythm that does the trick even though you on a consious level think it's the melodies. edit. as el brujo wrote rythms does not have to be the kick, the snare or the hi-hats.... it can be the woodstick used in a track or a repetetive whatever percusive sound. it can also as in much ambient be a certain repetetive frequenze or drone sound that repeats itself over and over again. 422392[/snapback] If that's true then why I fail to get in trance when listening to minimal or progressive music? It's not like I haven't tried. During 00/01 minimal and progressive was THE THING, played at every party. Didn't really like it, even started to hate it because it was nearly the only thing that was played. But still, I tried to dance to it. Get into the music so to say. I could manage to follow it for maybe about half an hour, dance to it (high or sober, tried both) but after this time it just bored me to death. I was never even near trance in that time. Some minutes ago I was listening to Sven van Hees - Emotional Rehabilitation. At the beginning there is a part with melodies without beats. I closed my eyes, followed the melodies with my mind, and I can easily imagine that this track could put me into trance even when take the beat away (the beat beginns after this "intro". Now there is this track LOC - Parsec a bit later on the CD, there are two different melodies (repetitive ones I mean, not like in the Emotionial Rehabilitation track) and I've tried to do the same. The first melody is more like a repetitive effect and it just doesn't get me. Now there is the second melody, this could do it, but mainly because even if the melody is not really varied I can make some sort of new melody with my mind while listening to it. That could get me into trance. And then there is a break without beats at all and a varied melody, I'll bet that this part would put me into trance at a party or at least when I'm not at my office... Anyway, I got carried away a bit... What I was trying to say is that I'm very sure about the melodies but me in trance and not the beats. The thing that brings me into trance is that my mind flows with the melodies, I often move with the melodies when dancing, my mind is making his own melodies out of of certain rhythmic effects because the rhythmics themselfes are not enough. And that's what does it for me. There is no way I can prove this to you since you can't read my mind. This is btw. also a reason why I like a lot of clubtrance (I'm not talking about stuff like Aquagen but about stuff like Conspiracy by Rank 1), listen to that melody, that's what puts me into trance. Feel free to call me cheesy but that really is it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTP Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 It depends so much on the situation and the mood. For me in my everyday life the rather slow tacks are more suitable ... okay, not too slow, but around 120 to 135 bpm kinda. Makes some progression and pushes gently. Ideal for running this is. I really love the stuff that is not so fast, I guess it's just my biological rhythm, there are tracks which have so great non-fast bpm I could run forever to them (sadly they are rare for it's not only the bpm that counts). And at home I also prefer the more housier and progressive stuff, not too fast but just progressive, that's ideal stuff for me! Sometimes I'm not at all in the mood for any beaty stuff too! Sometimes I just want to hear chill out stuff. Or sometimes metal! At parties the music can be faster. On some occasions I really want to get into a kind of trance and not just shaking to the rhythm if you know what I mean - although for that I'm sometimes also in the mood. Depends. The mood on a party sets itself not in minutes but rather hours and many things can happen in that time. The Nommos for example - I do not or only very very rarely listen to that stuff at home (too fast and too much "screaming sound" at you), but if they came here I'd probably go to the party, because for party this could fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tox Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 I'm with you Wannes! But ask your self the question if you would have said the same a coupple of years ago? I think (IN GENERAL) younger ppl like to have more extremes in their music (louder, harder, faster, drier, darker or 7 melodies & 5 climaxes in 1 track) & if you get older you start to appreciate the subtleness a lot more... At least this was the case for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goannes Posted January 24, 2006 Author Share Posted January 24, 2006 I'm with you Wannes! But ask your self the question if you would have said the same a coupple of years ago? I think (IN GENERAL) younger ppl like to have more extremes in their music (louder, harder, faster, drier, darker or 7 melodies & 5 climaxes in 1 track) & if you get older you start to appreciate the subtleness a lot more... At least this was the case for me 423042[/snapback] Indeed the last 3 years my taste evolved towards the more subtle progressive sounds of psytrance. I need 'less' sounds to get in trance. Although I still get carried away by good full psytrance. Cosmosis - Trancendance for example, or the last Wizzy Noise album. Talking about good fullon, check the new MWWN tracks on FutureSoundmasters comp from tip new world. That's some good music I reckon. I also think it's not the age that influences personal taste, but the the amount of years people are listeng to psytrance. The first two years you get sucked in the scene by classic psytracks from fe IM or AP. It think very few people get in the scene through progressive music. So a 30year old who just started listening psy will be dancing on IM and Astrix the first year. IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krell Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 I was just thinking, do lower beats per minute, get you better (faster, easier) in trance than a higher BPM? It seems logic to me that it's easier for your heart to tune in on lower beats, let's say 120 to 135 bpm( maybe even 100 to 120 bpm), than a higher amount per minute. And is that why house and progressive psytrance should be considered more entrancing than let's say hardcore/terror and fullon/ dark psytrance (which most of the time have bpm between 140-150)? These are just speculations. And I'm also pleading for the removal of too much breaks in trance music, because it sure as hell gets you of the trance state and it can be very annoying. Few breaks though can give you a higher feeling and that's nice. So, is it? <At how many beats per minute do african/indian tribal people hit their drum?> 422316[/snapback] Quote from http://perso.wanadoo.fr/psychedelic_trance...story_part3.htm "16th notes are the basic rhythmic division. The bpm (beats per minute) of Goa Trance tracks is quite medium, between 135 and 155, with an average at 145. Initially, the tempo was more moderate, a little bit more than 130, then it increased until 199, before another decrescendo following the influence of other musical genres. In passing, we can mention that a link is often made between the alpha waves frequencies of the human brain, associated with the state of trance, between 8 and 12 Hz, and a constant stream of 16th notes which, when played at the suggested average of 145 bpm, yields a flow of musical events at an average of 10 Hz. Coincidence or more ?" Now, this has been suggested elsewhere as well (for instance in the movie Liquid Crystal Vision), and I myself do not think it is a coincidence. But, fact of the matter is that there is no singular trance state, there are different ones and different rhythms and musical events stimulate different trance states / combine them. A break in a track might take you out of a trance state letting you "awaken" into less deep trance states untill its all gone (depending in the length of the break and events in it). For instance, if you have a long ambient break/passage with no beats/percussion there are no trance inducing elements anymore - There is just a calm sound while you drift up thru and away from the trance state you have achieved. However, I think you will enter the trancestate you came from much quicker than in the beginning, because you are already "tuned in". Anyway - While 145BPM combined with 16th notes might be the easiest for entering a not so deep trance, it is by no way a given fact that this rhythm will modulate every possible trance state there is. It is also not given that it is no good for entering deeper trance states, since there are more things going on in a track, like stuff repeating every 8 16 32 64 beats. The stuff which repeats slowly is ALSO trance inducing you see (all the repetitive sounds in a track are trance inducing). Trance comes from a sound OR event repeating itself, over and over - So, its a visual and audio stimulus (even physical). So, it is not per say linked to bassline BPM, but just to repetition as such. Imagine that BORING school teacher you once had, whos voice would make you "fall asleep" because it never changed pitch - He was actually entrancing the students :-) What it does is that it bores the brain and makes it shut itself down, perhaps a bit like if you watch a surface of white and you get your blind spot in your eye to cancel out the only black spot in the white - then you see only white because your brain makes it happen. (Its a subconscious trick / ability you can tune into when you try). Depending on the trance state sounds will disable functions in your brains perceptional state resulting in different kinds of experiences... Disable a bit of consciousness and you find yourself daydreaming fairly quickly for instance. Daydreaming for me is one of the first trance states and what I often do while listening to trance (also when dancing). Deeper trance states make me loose touch with my body, I tend to feel myself getting tunnel vision, very disconeected - Im almost affraid to tip over :-) Its just as intense as an acid tip, but its far more pleasant // when the "runners high" is there and your mind wanders off like that, it just feels so good, especially since you know YOU are doing it, alone, just nature and who you are :-) . There is interesting information online, I find it quite embarrassing that most trance DJs out there dont know the first thing about trance and what it can actually do for the human mind. For me, trance modulation theory is more interesting than harmonic mixing stuff for sure (but its all a balance).. However, this was not what this topic was about sorry. I like this ressource a lot http://www.trance.edu/ - Last I read thru it all it related to trance music as well. Another thing to read up on are different shamanic rituals, ritual drumming, dream quests etc. (These things I mostly get from my girlfriend, but I have planned studying it in the future). www.trance.edu stated, the first time I read it, that to achieve deep trance you need to listen to the same sound for 20minuttes... So, a 20 minutte long track would do it... But, Im actually not sure that is totally correct - I think, you might as well say "listening to the same rhythm" - and, for most trance tracks, even in the breaks, many dancers are still counting / hearing the beats in the breaks - since they imagine them... Therefore, I think deep trance is attainable on the dancefloor if you are not disturbed by friends or drunk people + kids yelling in every buildup. The best thing is this all leaves the door wide open for "trance djs" in regards to what music they can choose when sticking to a definition. I play, "Trance inducing music", this counts all full on, progressive & chillout // repetitive music in general. Great :-) Best Wishes Krell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goannes Posted January 24, 2006 Author Share Posted January 24, 2006 Well that's some reply! I have to read it again to get it all. But thanks for you time And that trance.edu site seems like just the spot I was looking for. I will be investigating this site the following days. But I want to get one thing clear already: "In passing, we can mention that a link is often made between the alpha waves frequencies of the human brain, associated with the state of trance, between 8 and 12 Hz, and a constant stream of 16th notes which, when played at the suggested average of 145 bpm, yields a flow of musical events at an average of 10 Hz. Coincidence or more ?" My mathematical and scientific english isn't that good. But does this suggests 145bpm is 'the best trance inducing rhythm?" Or did I understand this completely wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Matta Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 To me a trance state with music is a synergistic effect between the drums, percussion and melodies, where neither overwhelms the other. Speed doesn't matter, although I seem to prefer the faster stuff, around 140-150, because when it's faster it allows for an easier blurring effect, although not too fast so that I don't comprehend everything that's going on. I know the trance is working when the elements themselves start to disappear and/or blend, and the music becomes a unity of general linear motion. I know when I've been in a trance when all of a sudden I come back down from where I've been and hear the kick drum and think, "I don't remember that being there this whole time. Cool. I want to go back." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krell Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Well that's some reply! But I want to get one thing clear already: "In passing, we can mention that a link is often made between the alpha waves frequencies of the human brain, associated with the state of trance, between 8 and 12 Hz, and a constant stream of 16th notes which, when played at the suggested average of 145 bpm, yields a flow of musical events at an average of 10 Hz. Coincidence or more ?" My mathematical and scientific english isn't that good. But does this suggests 145bpm is 'the best trance inducing rhythm?" Or did I understand this completely wrong? 423142[/snapback] No, I dont think it suggests it is the "best" rhythm - I just think it suggests that there is a link and quite possible that when matching these frequencies its easy to achieve a state of trance. That is how I think of it. Perhaps there is a link to full on there - Many "beginners" start out with full on since they understand it so easily - This could be explained by this... However, I have the distinct feeling of that Im skating on thin ice here - Really, I have no facts to back any of all this up.. AFAIK people are still trying to understand what trance is. Guesswork from my side :-) I do know that I achieve different types of trance depending on the rhythm - What is best depends on the purpose of the trance... If you want to go up or down :-) Best Wishes Krell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qa2pir Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 100 - 120 is my favorite tempo for 4/4 music. It has room for groove without ever boring you, and melodies can be a bit more "swirly" with more clearly defined 32ths and stuff. I'm not a guy who listens to this music hoping to get into a state of trance though, so i'm talking about listening experience only. I mean, who can deny that a mid-tempo, pulsating beat with these "tss" hihats between and a deep, wobbly melodic bass circulating around well defined snares is IT? Ok, maybe not IT but i like it. It's a shame that it's either fasttrance or sloooooowwwwww chiiiiiiiiilllooouuuut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bahamut Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 It's the sounds, rhythms and melodies together... and song structure.. long-form, slowly developing music.. that's the best 'trance-inducing' music for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniël Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 I was just thinking, do lower beats per minute, get you better (faster, easier) in trance than a higher BPM? It seems logic to me that it's easier for your heart to tune in on lower beats, let's say 120 to 135 bpm( maybe even 100 to 120 bpm), than a higher amount per minute. And is that why house and progressive psytrance should be considered more entrancing than let's say hardcore/terror and fullon/ dark psytrance (which most of the time have bpm between 140-150)? These are just speculations. And I'm also pleading for the removal of too much breaks in trance music, because it sure as hell gets you of the trance state and it can be very annoying. Few breaks though can give you a higher feeling and that's nice. So, is it? <At how many beats per minute do african/indian tribal people hit their drum?> 422316[/snapback] This topic keeps coming up on all psy-forums all over the world. I'll just post what I always post. A few years ago I lived in a studenthome and my neighbour was a sporter with great love for Jimi/marley music. So off course we could get along pretty well. One day we were smoking some delicious vegetables and talking about psy & trance. He said he wanted to try and use it as a training metronome, he ran 4 times a week and participated in local championships. Back in those days most psy-music was 140-144. melodic goa trance. He discovered it was the perfect tempo to train on. He didn't get tired and ran at a constant highspeed tempo. Without the music he wiould automatically try to run harder and eventually that will make him mental & physically slower cause he gets tired. now, what the hell am i trying to say: look at achieving a trance state as throwing a ball as far as you can, you have to find the 45° curve and then you can go as far as you want with limited, almost no energy. I think the most remarkable thing about trance states is that you hardly use energy and can go on as long as you like to. I'm not even sure i ever experienced a real trance state, I always drink, smoke etc at parties which disturbs the flow of energy. Dancing like maniac on substances is more mmhh...hypnosis? Which is also fun off course but very bad for your body and it drains all your energy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furthur Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 when i used to bike a lot, magnetrixx was the perfect speed and repetitiveness for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowball Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 imo a slow beat with a lot of bass(you know,the wall shaking,glass shattering bass) and a trippy melody with very few breaks is very entrancing! on the other hand dark psy with ultra fast bpms has pretty much the same effect... so its the extremes that are entrancing and the middle is for clubbing (shit i rhime too,well sort of...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sick Bastard Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 I do agree about the breaks, They do not work in trance if we talk about getting into a stage of trance. they totally ruin the journey. But bpm does not really have anything to do with it IMO. 422346[/snapback] I do agree about the bpm, but i'll never understand why breaks are not welcome on psy scene . I love psy but i miss sooo much work on rythm section in most of the stuff i heard, i think it's they key for making dynamic music. There are lots of broken beats really psychedelic for me. Sounds, melodies, atmospheres and hypnotic repetition are what make me feel the trip, not rythm or speed. Just a matter of taste, i supose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Towelie Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 i like listening interesting patterns in music, thats what trance is lacking, the kick-hat-kick-hat thing is so predictable and boring i dont understand how people get deeply into music when the obvious beat is in every track , i prefer breaks as in break beat, not the build up break Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Elysium Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 I do agree about the bpm, but i'll never understand why breaks are not welcome on psy scene . I love psy but i miss sooo much work on rythm section in most of the stuff i heard, i think it's they key for making dynamic music. There are lots of broken beats really psychedelic for me. Sounds, melodies, atmospheres and hypnotic repetition are what make me feel the trip, not rythm or speed. Just a matter of taste, i supose 426088[/snapback] I think you misunderstood me. I meant break's as in a big pause and a big build-up.... like we hear in most fullon.... I did not mean breakbeats. I dig breakbeats a lot too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkeletonMan Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 This is a real fun topic. I tend to agree about the problems mentioned with breaks. They can danger the trance state. Still, listening to trance for many years and obviously having gotten to know myself better over the years, I have reached the conclusion, for now at least, that breaks are only a question of the mind. When in trance even long breaks - if it's in tracks I really like - nowadays work as trance for me. They take me even deeper. Complete silence when everything else has been crazy and I have a feeling everybody else is waking up. That's when I try to go deeper. Then when the beat kicks in again I actually wake up a little, and have to slow my rhytm to halfspeed or something. It's not that I feel I'm "surviving" the break. It's just I think that trance really is a question of the mind and music or even just sound actually not necessary. When there is less sound to clear a path for you, you just have to look inside your own tranquility to find the trance state of mind. I think To me that's a comforting & meaningful thought. Anyhow, have a funny experience I have to share. Was at the Roskilde Festival in Denmark in 2004 I think. One morning around 6-7 am I was looking for a party. Had been out all night, a little drunk and a little high on weed, but in control. I heard music in the distance. Far away. Fuck it, I thought, I'm going there. As I was walking what I thought was towards the music, the music sort of kept playing further and further away. Weird, I thought! Am I going in the wrong direction, but when I stopped to listen, there was no doubt I was going in the right direction. So I kept going. Then after another half mile there was still music playing far away but also something that resembled music or a beat right next to me. I was standing next to a generator !!! Could this be what I had been approaching all along, I thought?! It sounded very much like the music/sound in the distance. And it resembled music! Man !! I could literally have started dancing right there & then to the sound of a generator! I decided not to though thinking that would have been too weird! Well, it certainly made me think about what sounds/music I like. I guess there was a beat coming from the generator but hardly melodic! Just thump-thump-thump and very fast. Anyway, this experience gave me the idea that sounds have nothing to do with trance. If I can "hear" or create music in my head on the basis of a generator sound, whatever I need to enduce a trance state can all be created in the mind. Go Psychedelia! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qa2pir Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 Interesting thoughts. Mister SkeletonMan. I have been wondering how we can hear notes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sick Bastard Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 I think you misunderstood me. I meant break's as in a big pause and a big build-up.... like we hear in most fullon.... I did not mean breakbeats. I dig breakbeats a lot too 426156[/snapback] Sorry mate, i get your point now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inducted Consciousness Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 Yeah, about random sounds imitating the bassline, one time I was a passenger in an old car, and I thought if I could isolate the idling engine sound and decrease the tempo of the sample, I could create quite a killargh bassline. As with breaks in trance, I don't see a problem with it when attempting to enter the hypno-trance state. The problem is that many musicians don't know how to transition the break correctly, so it ends up sounding more like a hold your breath break than a break that explains an actual development in the trance, if that makes sense. Although I typically don't listen to music most of the time to get into a trance, rather to just listen to some interesting and good music. I find that there are other ways music can be hypnotizing rather than the typical trance method, which although may not be equivalent, is still mind-altering nonetheless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowball Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 electrical generators can actually put you in a trance by themselves.... i hallucinated that i was carried by a huge cloud of bees and going up and up and up.... you should try it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuse Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 for homelistening lower bmp is certainly more entrancing imo, I prefer old skool that's not too fast to listen at home, not the fullon that is full ahead but more progressive minded so yés I believe so, at a party offcourse it's about dancing and when it's 8u in the morning the lower bpm maybe more entrancing but it doens't keep you motivated to dance so, allthough lower bmp is not what I have specially mind, it's not the concept lower bpm but how fast the psychedelic sounds and melodies follow each other up, I think the topic should be named is more uplifting more entrancing then not uplifting, imo off course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkeletonMan Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 Yeah, about random sounds imitating the bassline, one time I was a passenger in an old car, and I thought if I could isolate the idling engine sound and decrease the tempo of the sample, I could create quite a killargh bassline. As with breaks in trance, I don't see a problem with it when attempting to enter the hypno-trance state. The problem is that many musicians don't know how to transition the break correctly, so it ends up sounding more like a hold your breath break than a break that explains an actual development in the trance, if that makes sense. Although I typically don't listen to music most of the time to get into a trance, rather to just listen to some interesting and good music. 426559[/snapback] I very much agree and also find that many musicians have a narrow approeach to breaks. They can be mind widening but the musician has to "trust" the break and that it will make sense. I guess that is what goes for the talented musician. They know good breaks make sense and so are not afraid to use long breaks. Going from a killargh bass to silence, build up and then the bass kicks in again. Is it possible not to love that?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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