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Meat eater/Vegetarian/Vegan. What are you?


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Meat Eater? Vegetarian? Vegan? What are you?  

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  1. 1. Meat Eater? Vegetarian? Vegan? What are you?

    • Meat eater
      10
    • Vegetarian
      7
    • Vegan
      5
    • Cannibal
      3


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On 10/29/2018 at 2:20 AM, mudpeople said:

Anthony Bourdain made a great point, that vegetarianism as a moral choice is a First World luxury, that people in developing places don't really have the option and are just trying to survive with whatever they can scrounge, whatever it may be. 

Right you are and a good point. I've just come away from 5 months in South and Central America and I can tell you this is 100% true. vegetarian restaurants don't even exist in non touristy places because it just doesn't make sense for people who work 7 days a week to stop eating the animals that surround and support them. 

It makes me wonder what to make of the fight for veganism in Australia with its 23 million people when almost 430 million people across the ocean have no hope in hell of turning any time soon.

Lucky for us in Australia we have a pretty good solution no one really talks about. It's called Kangaroo, better for you, the environment, impossible to farm and as an actual pest the ecosystem benefits from the hunting of them. Obviously not a solution if the eating of living beings is what irks you.

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14 hours ago, tsotsi said:

Right you are and a good point.

Quite the opposite. Bourdain was a well-known hardcore hater of vegetarians/vegans. He famously said that vegans should kill themselves, which is ironic to say the least. His statement regarding vegetarianism being a luxury is not only biaised but just plain wrong.

More seriously:
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/meat-supply-per-person?tab=map

"Meat consumption is highest across high-income countries (with the largest meat-eaters in Australia, consuming around 116 kilograms per person in 2013). The average European and North American consumes nearly 80 kilograms  and more than 110 kilograms, respectively. However, changes in consumption in high-income countries have been much slower - with most stagnating or even decreasing over the last 50 years.

Consumption trends across Africa are varied; some countries consume as low as 10 kilograms per person, around half of the continental average. Higher-income nations such as South Africa consume between 60-70 kilograms per person."

 

 

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Ahp well. I rescind that. 

Should check my stats. Having been there and spending considerable time in places not made for tourists I will say it has the appearance of a meat centric part of the world. Is it possible people just consume less in general? Hence a lower consumption of meat?

Even if not, maybe Australians eat meat in 3 meals a day but south Americans 1 or 2 meals a day, but those meaty meals are pretty essential to culture and economy from what I can tell. 

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2 hours ago, tsotsi said:

Ahp well. I rescind that. 

Should check my stats. Having been there and spending considerable time in places not made for tourists I will say it has the appearance of a meat centric part of the world. Is it possible people just consume less in general? Hence a lower consumption of meat?

Even if not, maybe Australians eat meat in 3 meals a day but south Americans 1 or 2 meals a day, but those meaty meals are pretty essential to culture and economy from what I can tell. 

Hey no problem man. Broadly speaking, people in poor countries simply can't afford eating meat on a daily basis. Vegetables, beans, insects, etc. come much cheaper. You're right though, some other components like culture can definitely play a role on a diet; India's Hinduism and lacto vegetarianism comes in mind. 

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Very well presented. He makes good arguments against animal abuse. Unfortunately, that is his focus. Not giving arguments in favor of being vegan, but giving arguments against animal abuse. These are not equivalent (during the Q&A he somewhat says these are equivalent from a purely ethical point of view). He goes a bit crazy around 14 min mark when he says "all you have to do to end all of this is to eat something else". I guess he's playing to the crowd.

A slight pet peeve. Whenever he claims something grandiose he supports it by "I think we all agree with so and so". He does this several times. I also think we all are against animal abuse. It's not relevant to support for veganism, because it is implicitly assumed that "cruel factory farming" is the only way to conduct it. It isn't. To his credit, he also knows he is exploiting this pattern and admits it freely during the Q&A.

 

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4 hours ago, psychedelic chipmunk said:

Very well presented. He makes good arguments against animal abuse. Unfortunately, that is his focus. Not giving arguments in favor of being vegan, but giving arguments against animal abuse. These are not equivalent (during the Q&A he somewhat says these are equivalent from a purely ethical point of view). He goes a bit crazy around 14 min mark when he says "all you have to do to end all of this is to eat something else". I guess he's playing to the crowd.

A slight pet peeve. Whenever he claims something grandiose he supports it by "I think we all agree with so and so". He does this several times. I also think we all are against animal abuse. It's not relevant to support for veganism, because it is implicitly assumed that "cruel factory farming" is the only way to conduct it. It isn't. To his credit, he also knows he is exploiting this pattern and admits it freely during the Q&A.

 

"Not giving arguments in favor of being vegan, but giving arguments against animal abuse." It's entailed. Veganism, at its core, is an ethical principal against needless exploitation, suffering and harm inflicted on non-human animals. 

"I think we all agree with so and so" That's rhetorical yes - that doesn't invalidate his arguments in and of themselves. 

"I also think we all are against animal abuse." Of course we're not, don't be silly. Each day, we pay for animals to but stabbed in the throat for palate pleasure. The notion that "cruelty" is a factory farm exclusive is just naive. It is not the case. 

One question, are you vegan? If not, why not? 

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Not vegan, yet. A lot of effort involved in making vegan diet work. Eating vegan doesn't automatically imply eating healthy. I struggle a lot with finding mostly animal product specifics (if not specific to, then very scarce among vegan-friendly products) most notably cobalamin and taurine to name some. I would need to hire a personal trainer to get a proper vegan diet going, but I already know which mixed diets work for me, so it's an easy choice. Besides, there're only 24 hours in a day.

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4 minutes ago, psychedelic chipmunk said:

Not vegan, yet. A lot of effort involved in making vegan diet work. Eating vegan doesn't automatically imply eating healthy. I struggle a lot with finding mostly animal product specifics (if not specific to, then very scarce among vegan-friendly products) most notably cobalamin and taurine to name some. I would need to hire a personal trainer to get a proper vegan diet going, but I already know which mixed diets work for me, so it's an easy choice. Besides, there're only 24 hours in a day.

"A lot of effort involved in making vegan diet work." It seems more difficult than it actually is to be honest. Eat a balanced, whole food diet, take your B12 vitamin, make sure you meet your daily caloric requirements and you're good to go. 

"Eating vegan doesn't automatically imply eating healthy." The same can be said of an omnivorous diet. 

"I struggle a lot with finding mostly animal product specifics (if not specific to, then very scarce among vegan-friendly products) most notably cobalamin and taurine to name some."
Technically speaking, cobalamin (B12) comes from bacteria, not animals. As such, it can be found in soil, water and some aquatic plants. Having said that, I don't see an issue with taking one B12 tablet once a week. It's also worth noting that 85% of the B12 production goes to farm animals. We are supplemented, whether we like it or not. Taurine, on the other hand, is not an essential amino acid. Nevertheless, it's widely available in synthetic form (vegan friendly) in most energy drinks. 

"I would need to hire a personal trainer to get a proper vegan diet going". If you're really concerned about your dietery reference intake, I highly recommend cronometer, it works wonder. 

I can easily be reached on discord. Let me know if you ever feel like exploring/debate this topic any further or if you have questions with respect to the core tenet of veganism. Have a good one. 

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I know this topic is super sensible and I was myself sensible when someone told me veganism is not good... I became a vegertarian and later even went in the vegan direction also.. went "not so good" to say it mildly(in the first 2 or so years yeahh, but do this better only 3-4 months!) - but I do not want to tell my horror life story re. to this. Here 2 ladies, listen to them:

 


Of course be aware, drinking too much milk, eating too much meat, eggs and cheap fats is also wrong. Find a balance, once a week meat is better than no meat and even better if not industrial foods, but just watch the vids.

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To me it's not so much about whether it's "wrong". I know what kind of diets work for me. A lot of the former vegans who say they don't recommend it do it mostly because they couldn't figure out their diet. I'm likely not going to, either, so I will just skip being miserable and instead stay healthy so I can work normally.

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On 8/10/2020 at 7:06 PM, Multi-Media said:

I know this topic is super sensible and I was myself sensible when someone told me veganism is not good... I became a vegertarian and later even went in the vegan direction also.. went "not so good" to say it mildly(in the first 2 or so years yeahh, but do this better only 3-4 months!) - but I do not want to tell my horror life story re. to this. Here 2 ladies, listen to them:

[...]


Of course be aware, drinking too much milk, eating too much meat, eggs and cheap fats is also wrong. Find a balance, once a week meat is better than no meat and even better if not industrial foods, but just watch the vids.

Iam not vegan, but I recommend that you deal with a vegan diet before you go in practice.

I read this book (only in german): "Vegan Klischee ade" by Nikko Rittenau. He is a nutritionist. His work based only on science. He doesn't gloss over anything, he says what the nutritional science say about veganism. A lot of quotes and a big list of references enable you to check his arguments. His conclusion: A vegan diet is possible and well tolerated and healthy if you pay attention to a few things.

https://www.nikorittenau.com/vegan-klischee-ade/

He has also a channel on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/c/NikoRittenau/videos

 

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20 hours ago, Multi-Media said:

@GhostOnAcid

EDIT, I do not want to discuss this, I just stated my opinion as the OP asked for. So I deleted my longer reply.

= Everyone can eat what he wants, as long you do not push it on others agressively (or using shaming etc. tactics)
 

 

I think, there is nothing to discuss on my post. I only say there is a book about veganism which deals with facts, not opinions. I read this, because iam interested in nutrition to  change it to more vegetable nutrition. ;-)

My opinion: Everyone can eat what he wants, but should be concerned with his diet and its effects on the environment!

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On 8/10/2020 at 1:06 PM, Multi-Media said:

I know this topic is super sensible and I was myself sensible when someone told me veganism is not good... I became a vegertarian and later even went in the vegan direction also.. went "not so good" to say it mildly(in the first 2 or so years yeahh, but do this better only 3-4 months!) - but I do not want to tell my horror life story re. to this. Here 2 ladies, listen to them:

 


Of course be aware, drinking too much milk, eating too much meat, eggs and cheap fats is also wrong. Find a balance, once a week meat is better than no meat and even better if not industrial foods, but just watch the vids.

That's purely anecdotal; the lowest quality on the hierarchy of evidence. 

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