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Kitrinos

Why do some Israeli artists seem overdefensive about their country

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Kitrinos    44

I am posting this to express my disapointment about the attitude of certain goa/psytrance producers. Just have a look at Afgin's wall on facebook and you'll see what I mean. This is not personal at all.

Because for me goa trance is something more than music. I am by all means in favour of peace and unity of all people in the world, and I believe this is a central idea in goa trance culture. By posting proudly a bunch of things about your country and the armed forces, you do not seem to embrace this idea at all.

Please correct me if I am wrong!

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Imba    287

I never connect politics with trance. Non sense.

 

But yeah, situation is bad there and patriotism is in everyone.

 

Speaking of non Israeli artists... i hate when i see artists boycot Israel... why da fuck are trancers responsible for war? I mean you refuse to play music just because politicians started war. And then i saw people send death threats to specific artists. They think with sharing photos and posts on facebook and other social media they will stop war? lol They just make people hate them.

 

Israelis are proud nation, i been there and i saw that. And ofcourse, you will support your country even if doing bad thing. It's patriotism.

 

IMO politics should never be involved in any music, specially not TRANCE! But everyone has own opinion ;)

 

 

I survived war when i was kid and i know how they feel right now.

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Richpa    846

Slaughter at UN schools doesn't have anything with common sense, humanity or anything that define someone as a normal person. No matter who and where. It's just wrong on so many levels. To blame whole nation about certain act of couple people, it's ridicilous also.

Evolution....my ass. Human-kind sometime doesn't deserve to be in the same context with evolution.

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Drosophila    96

Israelis are proud nation, i been there and i saw that. And ofcourse, you will support your country even if doing bad thing. It's patriotism.

 

 

That is how wars are started, patriotism is not a law of nature, and not something you are automatically subjected to unless you "choose" to. Off course what happens is that people are manipulated into " choosing" to blindly support what ever decision your government are taking, and some people call that patriotism, I call it mass-psychosis, all common-sense goes out the window, all criticism are fought by extreme methods, I mean the same thing happened in Germany i the 30'ties, all Germans were not devils. They got caught up in a mass-psychosis where all empathy towards "the enemy" was gone and exchanged with an acceptance of dehumanization.... it is really sad to see some of the same tendencies happening in a so-called developed country nowadays! I do understand that feeling threaten makes you do stupid and unreasonable things, but it still does just justify anything, especially since this scenario has not changed for almost 50 years... People have to learn from history to be able to change things for the better, not just keep repeating it!

 

But I totally agree, leave politics and trance music separate, it serves no purpose to mix these things up!

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desysko    82

Man, some folks need to read what Leo Tolstoy wrote on patriotism. While I don't agree with him with all stuff (like how he was completely pacifist which I agree with but believe there are times when you need to fight back), he wrote a ton of good stuff.

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Kitrinos    44

Concerning patriotism, no, I will not support my country if I don't agree with it. I see patriotism as an illusion which people have been manipulated to believe in. I am positive that in order to achieve world peace we have to get rid of such beliefs that create walls between the people.

 

Yes Richpa, unfortunately at a spiritual and humane level we are light years behind our technological advancement and evolution.

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Arronax    70

I am posting this to express my disapointment about the attitude of certain goa/psytrance producers. Just have a look at Afgin's wall on facebook and you'll see what I mean. This is not personal at all.

Because for me goa trance is something more than music. I am by all means in favour of peace and unity of all people in the world, and I believe this is a central idea in goa trance culture. By posting proudly a bunch of things about your country and the armed forces, you do not seem to embrace this idea at all.

Please correct me if I am wrong!

I've noticed the same attitude both with Afgin and some other Israeli artists myself, and I completely agree it's sad to support killing of civilians no matter which side they're on. I have personally decided to break any contact with anyone who supports the bombing of Gaza. I don't give a shit if I'm not gonna make any progress in my Goa career but I'm not going to Israel ever in my life. Probably no one cares, but I don't care either. I just couldn't imagine myself partying while just a few miles away someone keeps bombing children to bits and pieces.

 

The aftermath of Israeli attacks is 300+ dead children only this time, not mentioning the previous 50+ years of war in that region... I don't give a fuck if they had all the right in the Universe to bomb someone, they don't have the right to bomb civilians under any circumstances.

 

So yeah, welcome to the reality where PLUR is only an empty bombshell.

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Drosophila    96

I don't think it makes sense to put all people from one nation into one category! Although they might be in minority now, they are still there, the people who want a fair peace where there is also room for the Palestinian people. I really hope we are just reaching the low-point in this horrible situation... :unsure::(

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Arronax    70

I'll just say this: When Filipe Santos wished those horrible things to Mars we were mostly all united to call him (and rightfully so) crazy and block his presence on Facebook etc. When some artist writes that Israeli army is a heroic army and yet we see how that army massacres innocent civilians among which there are probably even people listening to Goa trance, we should apply the same standard. At least that's how it works in my world.

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Drosophila    96

Do that to those who express those opinions... I can only support you in that. Just make sure you do not go with half truths about other people and what you think is their opinion. I have seen Afgin's wall and it definitely not something I can support :( I have bought the last release from his hand, that is for sure! I haven't really liked any of his output for a long time anyway...

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BraneFreeze    27

In all fairness, if you're going to criticize the Israeli army, let's at least mention Hamas's deliberate policy of using Gaza civilians as human shields for rocket launchers, weapons depots, and military command centers. Many so-called neutral UN facilities also serve the same function. Hamas has no more concern for the welfare of Gaza civilians than it does for Israelis. (How come all that cement ended up in tunnels rather than houses, schools, hospitals, infrastructure, etc?)

 

Israelis are defensive because there's always a double standard. Let's at least hold Hamas accountable to the same standards that the international community always applies to Israel. Hamas shouldn't get a pass just because we have lower expectations for thugs and terrorists.

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Drosophila    96

It's like comparing apples and grapes... do you see any artists supporting Hamas? Well no... it's not the same old question who is the worst amongst the bad guys.. it's pointless argument to have (on an internet forum)! I think it is very fair to not agree and not support artist spreading military propaganda or what ever that supports aggression, no matter on which side it belong to.

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BraneFreeze    27

Is it more aggressive to launch rockets on Israeli civilians, or to attempt to protect those civilians by stopping the rockets? (And if you don't like the Israeli's response, what's your alternative?)

 

You might feel differently if you lived in Israel. However, everyone is entitled to his own opinion, and reasonable people may arrive at different conclusions.

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Tatsu    29

Well, we had discussions like that on psynews 10 years ago. It never gets old.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you BraneFreeze but maybe you might feel differently (to use your words) if you would live in Palastina and would be feeling like Israel is taking water and other ressources you need to stay alive away from you. You can say that this does not justify that Hamas launches rockets against israely civilans and yes, I agree about that with you. But it's similarly wrong from Israel to attack palastinan civilians. But that's the whole point with the conflict: both are wrong and right at the same time and it seems like there is no solution possible. As ususal politics is going its way but the civilans on both sides pay the price. That's the real sad part of it... :( :( :( :(

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Richpa    846

using Gaza civilians as human shields for rocket launchers

 

You know that 1,7 million people lives in area which is 40 km in lenght and 10km in width?

 

 

How do you explain the usage of double-tap technique towards the area where civillians are present?

 

 

Is that war against Hamas or any other millitants?

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Drosophila    96

Is it more aggressive to launch rockets on Israeli civilians, or to attempt to protect those civilians by stopping the rockets? (And if you don't like the Israeli's response, what's your alternative?)

 

You might feel differently if you lived in Israel. However, everyone is entitled to his own opinion, and reasonable people may arrive at different conclusions.

 

I repeat my self... I do not support trance artist promoting aggression, no matter what side you are on, that was my point.

 

The conflict it self is different story, and no I definitely do not sympathise with the way that the Israeli army has been utilized... I am not saying that there should be no response to rocket attacks but basically this approach has just been creating many more future recruits for Hamas and organisation far worse than Hamas... using artillery to target single units of enemies in densely populated area is by no means a good tactic if you want to minimize casualties. So for Netanyahu it might make sense, since he thrives of the presence of the likes of Hamas or what ever comes after will be called... as Tatsu said both sides are wrong, but one part of the conflict is a nation the other is denied to be the same, how will that ever fix the problem?! The problem is that the real problem (the creation of a true viable Palestine state) is never addressed... I see no other solution? If you want to do it militarily I am very afraid you will end up with a holocaust against the Palestinians.

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Veracohr    97

I watched a documentary last night about the history of superhero comics. Part of it dealt with comics during the 1940s, and how many of these (American) comic artists drew/wrote horribly racist images/stories about Japanese people, during a period when many comics dealt with then-current WWII. They even had current (ca. 2013) comments from at least one of those artists who drew such things as rats with caricatured Japanese faces, and other such horribly racist things.

 

My point is that in times of conflict, people inevitably withdraw and close ranks with the people they know and trust. It's unfortunate, but in times of conflict, humans tend to identify most closely with those who are most similar to them genetically, culturally. geographically, linguistically, etc, and reject those who are different in those respects. It's hard to identify with and feel compassion for someone who is trying to kill you. Open-mindedness is a luxury of peace and prosperity.

 

It is to be expected. If someone attacked the U.S., I don't doubt that I would feel much the same as the Israelis do now, even though I am at heart a pacifist, and I also know that the U.S. could militarily kick the shit out of most anybody who tried to attack us.

 

I agree with the opinion, stated by people I can't remember, that [paraphrased/interpreted] human civilization is a VERY THIN veneer over the biological needs and urges of an animal species. Personally, I think both sides in this current conflict are equally culpable, fucking murderous idiots. But I suggest people try not to choose one side over another until they've been in the same position.

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Drosophila    96

After 50 years of conflict choosing sides with any armed-group (Israeli or Palestinian) seems absurd any-ways to me... the only thing that matters is that peace is achieved, people from both sides involved in this conflict has done things that are terrible! But is really sad to see a government of country with culture that has such an extensive history of anti-Semitism doing and justifying collective punishment of different Semitic people.

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Richpa    846

I But I suggest people try not to choose one side over another until they've been in the same position.

For me it's not about choosing the side. It's about pointing out THE WRONG THINGS. After seeing images, reports and confession of people who are in Palestine, it reminds me on horrible situation that occured during the civil war in Bosnia and Croatia. I was 6-7 years old than, just like kids who are killed and luckly me and my family haven't lost anyone, except of everything we had including our homes and land. Thoose things are something that will be part of my life until I die. Do I judge the certain nation or people on the other side about that? No, of course not. But I judge idiots who triggered the conflict, on each side. Does that mean I can't say what I feel it's wrong even in this situation? I don't approve the agression towards Israel, it's wrong to lunch missle attacks on anybody (even they have Irondome unlike Palestine), but it's more wrong to retaliate in such a agressive way to have so many civillians and innocent people killed in Palestine, and that is a fact.

 

Trance music should be a tool of getting people connected, to stand united against the wrong things and horror that is happening in the middle-east (or any other place in the world), not choosing the sides or boycotting the whole people/nation, but to say loud and clear what's wrong. If we have to judge someone, we should judge ones (individuals) who have made decisions and who triggered the conflict, in the end, only loosers will be innocent, common people (on both sides) and that sucks.

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Drosophila    96

A very interesting initiative (started in 2004)

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Arronax    70

If one government that is elected by its citizens can boycott a whole nation I don't see why I as a voter wouldn't be able to do the same. Just look how USA boycotts Iran & Russia. EU trying to impose embargoes on Russia etc. Once the violence in Palestine stops for good (and I mean when Palestine gets accepted to UN as a sovereign & independent country) I might want to change my attitude but until then we all know that Israel will use all it can to acquire even more weapons for the future because this conflict won't end until Palestine gets a larger portion of the land back. If Israeli officials think they can win by ethnic cleansing, I sure hope they have a pre-purchased ticket for Mars because the world won't sit idle any longer.

 

As for the conflict itself, I'll just remind you that Israel (in modern era) didn't exist prior to 1947 and it was created violently by foreign superpowers, Israelstarting to exile Palestinians on day 1. Something that was born in violence can't live in peace for too long. The only solution in 21st century would be that Israel gives Palestinians a chance to build their country and try to build a better region. But, I believe the Israeli leaders won't accept that for two reasons: that way they would have to start an international aggression which would draw its consequences in the Security Council, and second, that way they wouldn't have the villain on the opposing side (Hamas) to use as an excuse for land-grabbing and violent expansion of their borders. And let's not be fooled that this is an act of ONE MAN or a group of people in Israel, from what I've seen there is a vast majority of Israelis who are calling for violence and killing, sending messages on rockets, children writing their greets to Gaza children not by sending love letters but by writing awful things on the bombs that are launched the same night to kill them. Heck, even GIRLS go to military in Israel. As in, obligatory. How is that for a peaceful nation? If a Goa trance artist (who is supposed to be an open-minded PLUR person sending love through his tracks) calls for military aggression just imagine what a conservative people of Israel have in their minds? And FYI Israel is ruled by a conservative party chosen by the citizens of Israel. And yet we see how Israeli government accuses Palestinians for choosing their counterpart in Gaza called Hamas. So, to put things on the table, Israelis are allowed to choose a bloodthirsty regime on their elections, but Palestinians aren't allowed to choose a shady organization for their leadership.

 

I don't support Hamas either, they have their own share of blood on their hands but one thing is 100% clear: Hamas was born as a counter-measure against Israeli aggression and not the other way round.

 

For the end, before some people start calling me anti-semitic or whatever, I don't think that this conflict has to do much with race or ethnicity, it's pure land grabbing war and a severe lack of human empathy. This conflict has been around for too long and it has to be stopped before it gets really too late. I am 100% sure that there are peaceful Israelis who want to see this conflict end as much as everyone else does, but unfortunately their number is not big enough to pull the handbrake in this case. This madness needs to stop for I believe we're seeing the last threshold in the region being breached. I just don't want to live through another war, in this case a world war. As Richpa said, living through one war was pretty much enough for a lifetime.

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Panoptes    44

Blaming hamas is ridicules. If israel wasn't run by genocidal racists the palestinians wouldn't need to desperately elect violent parties to protect themselves. Its very sad and I hope no trance artists support their cause. The american tax payer is sponsoring these killings. End foreign aid to israel.

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radi6404    29

Blaming hamas is ridicules. If israel wasn't run by genocidal racists the palestinians wouldn't need to desperately elect violent parties to protect themselves. Its very sad and I hope no trance artists support their cause. The american tax payer is sponsoring these killings. End foreign aid to israel.

Absolutely true. If we discuss the situation of Israel, we have to look back at the history of that nation and that after the holocoast it needed a place to stay. In my opinion any nation has to has a place where they can live in peace and it is known historically that Israel existed and that those people where from that geographical area in the world. Israel people are very violent nowadays and some do wrong things like supporting war as trance artists who usually should indeed spread peace and connect people to each other. But historically I think that Palestina is not innocent at all and is responsible for the current situation. If they were bright minded people, they wouldn´t have made trouble to Israel and let them leave in peace, not wanting the country back. I mean, hsitorically that is their place and those people must have one place where they can exist. It is not a small nation which could live only as immigrants to other countries, it is a big nation and they have the damn right to have their own place. Palestina people don´t have the right to want their country back and telling Israelians to live as immigrants. Historically it was their country and usually people should welcome Israelies and feel sory for them after the holocoast.

 

The methods of Israel and Plaestina in their war are very violent and some events are unacceptable, but not only from Israelians, but also from Palestinians or how they are called. It is wrong to take either side because both have done more than enough unacceptable crimes to innocent people. Many people are protecting Palestinenians because Israel uses very violent methods in this war, but in history, how many times did Palestiians break agreements for peace? How many times did Palestinians use violent methods to challange the war? In my opinion both countries are responsible for the situation and I can understand some people being angry.

 

In my opinion the war is wrong and it must end, but I do support Israel for insisting to stay in their country. They have every right to have a country somewhere in the world and usually that country must be funded by all nations who contributed in the holocoast.

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Kitrinos    44

If a Goa trance artist (who is supposed to be an open-minded PLUR person sending love through his tracks) calls for military aggression just imagine what a conservative people of Israel have in their minds?

Exactly, that was the initial point I wanted to raise.

 

I understand that people have been brainwashed and might feel defensive. Most of us would have probably been brainwashed, had we been brought up in Israel. But I expect a different attitude and open-mindedness from psytrance artists.

It just makes me sad that a goa trance artist like Afgin promotes the Israeli special forces instead of PLUR or his music, through his facebook page. I cannot accept that. I hope he finds the wisdom to realize that what he upholds is contradictory. He should either change attitude or stop making goa trance music.

 

This is my opinion about Afgin or anyone else who has similar views; regardless which country he comes from.

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Djuna    77

It's indeed so absurd to see how some artists who put 'Love', 'Unity' or 'Peace' in their titles, messages or music, are also minimizing colonialism and killing of innocents. Not just Israeli goa trance artists only of course. Even just promoting an army alone is pretty weird.

 

Which also makes me wonder: in the 90's the Free Tibet movement was pretty big, even Astral Projection made a track called 'Free Tibet', donating it to charity. This is an other war, but is also about a country that is being aggressively controlled by its neighbour. This sort of duality is pretty interesting, I wonder what the explanation behind that is.

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