Rotwang Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 There is a lot of supportive evidence for that, one of that is for example that we escape our body and can describe things, that we can not describe with the eyes inside the body. Do you know of any evidence that the things those people describe are actually there? I heard people had tried placing images on top of tall objects in operating theatres and asking people who had had out-of-body experiences to identify what was on the pictures, and AIUI none of them did. Also the explanation that the bright light is caused by our eyes does not explain, how blind people could describe things, altough their eyes could not see. That doesn't rule out the possibility that the bright light is caused by our visual cortex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radi6404 Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Do you know of any evidence that the things those people describe are actually there? I heard people had tried placing images on top of tall objects in operating theatres and asking people who had had out-of-body experiences to identify what was on the pictures, and AAUI none of them did. That doesn't rule out the possibility that the bright light is caused by our visual cortex. Aktually on all the videos I found on this research people did identify what is on top of the romms. There is a video on youtube where a woman discoevered a shoe on top of the hospital, that people did not know is on top and first encountered after she told them, so I am wondering where you search for those things. My findings to thi research are completely different. If your research completely differs from my research and you mostly found negative evidence that is not supporting Life after deaht, it can mean that the rreality delivers different information, because we want to believe different things. If you don´t want to believe in life after death, reality might just provide you with videos about that. That is one possibility, if reality is different as we thing, I explained it above. I searched for NDEs the same way as you did and looked many videos, most suggesting life after death is not connected with the body and brain. And to your statement, no. When the eyes don`t work, there is no chance they will work during an NDE, that will explain our brain percepted them, if the eyes are unable to see, it is phisically explicable. The eyes don`t have receptors to see or are not connected to the nerves properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouroboros Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 i am a militant anti-theist. not only do i NOT believe in any gods, but i feel as though such beliefs and the religions that they spawn are the absolute worst threat humanity has ever known. at best religions and such superstitions thwart our progress as a society and species, and at worst they are the very root of almost all known evils. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angular_sound Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Despite i believe in the survival of the spirit after death & reincarnation, i have a personal concept of God based on my research on spiriualism and occultism. To me a God-Godess would be the sum of all creative actions of all the beings inhabiting a planet. If the sum of their actions is destructive rather than creative, the civilization remains an elemental/a Demon and either disappear or eventually threathen another inhabited world. Actually on the surface it's hard to tell if the Earth actually is a God/advanced civilization or a bad entity but the evidences tends to suggest the former.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotwang Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Aktually on all the videos I found on this research people did identify what is on top of the romms. There is a video on youtube where a woman discoevered a shoe on top of the hospital, that people did not know is on top and first encountered after she told them, Thanks for the video. Do you know where to find the one about the woman with the shoe? I'd like to see that if possible. so I am wondering where you search for those things. I haven't actively researched it. What I said was based on stuff I've read in passing here and there (I doubt I could provide any references). If your research completely differs from my research and you mostly found negative evidence that is not supporting Life after deaht, it can mean that the rreality delivers different information, because we want to believe different things. If you don´t want to believe in life after death, reality might just provide you with videos about that. That is one possibility Not in my case, since I do believe in life after death and would love to know of some convincing evidence that it exists. And to your statement, no. When the eyes don`t work, there is no chance they will work during an NDE, But they wouldn't have to work to explain people seeing light during NDE's, if something is happening in the visual cortex. For example a quick web search turned up this: Ive just found a remarkable 1963 study [pdf] from the Archives of Opthalmology in which 24 blind participants took LSD to see if they could experience visual hallucinations. It turns out, they can, although this seems largely to be the case in blind people who had several years of sight to begin with, but who later lost their vision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radi6404 Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Hey Rotwang, here you are with that video. And by the way, people may be able to have visual experiences, but not describe in detail what is happening in the rooms where they get healthcare. Visuals in NDEs where also experienced by people, who where not able to see in their lifes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotwang Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Hey Rotwang, here you are with that video. Thanks. I'll probably watch it tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptn Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 eternal doubts ... small aversion towards organised religion ... but that doesn't mean I'm not intersted in religion ... in the end we are all stardust ... So, the name is not a hint in any way ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abasio Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 I'm a pretty spiritual person. The thought that humans are the pinnacle of everything in existence just smacks of arrogance so atheism doesn't sit well with me. I believe that there must be something greater than us. I don't believe in an omniscient or omnipresent god or an ultimate evil. I can't believe any god would give his people something safe, healthy, fun and harmful to no one like masturbation, then say it's a sin. If they did then they are likely a 10 year old kid with acceptance problems. If the Abrahamic god exists, then I'm sure they must be a higher lifeform with a easy life kit. Then even immature "gods" could control worlds. If our Abrahamic religions are true, I believe we must have an immature god as our world is fucked up and any omniscient being controlling this globe must be either immature or retarded. I'm more of the belief that we've been created by something that does not take an active interest in how things turn out. We are by now means the pinnacle of evolution but we are not controlled b a benevolent force. I also like the basic ideas of most religions but the way they have been twisted by people over the years to use them to exclude and/or control people is sickening. All preach peace and love but many followers use the writings for hate, control and exclusion. I know that most religious people are not like this but I think there is not enough one against þhe few that fuck up the image or the rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padmapani Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 The thought that humans are the pinnacle of everything in existence just smacks of arrogance so atheism doesn't sit well with me. atheism doesn't imply something like that. each lifeform in existance is the pinnacle of evolution just as much as any other, simply because it has "managed" to be alive today. if i had to put the stamp of arrogance on one side of this question, i'd rather put in on the belief that humans are superior to other species. we're just apes with a slightly larger lump of fat and protein in our heads, which most of us cannot even use properly . in this respect i'd place the blame for the problems we see today rather on the society we were born in and which we perpetuate and on the ignorant people (who for instance actively support wars) rather than on a malevolent or immature god. but yes, i agree that this rules out a belevolent, all-powerful god. such a being would (by defintion) have had plenty of time to make its existance clear (beyond any doubt) to everyone and would in the same way have had enough chances to improve the lives of the people on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mephistopheles Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 So, the name is not a hint in any way ? If you are referring to Mephistopheles as The Devil and me being some sort of a devilworshipper to explain my small aversion (not hate) of organised religion, no ... keep in mind that Mephistopheles is not the same as The Devil ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mephistopheles Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I'm more of the belief that we've been created by something that does not take an active interest in how things turn out. We are by now means the pinnacle of evolution but we are not controlled b a benevolent force. Something like "the Unmoved mover" of Aristotle ... created by something that is'nt aware of its creation, it just is and we emenate from it .... ? (to put it simplistic) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mephistopheles Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Also interesting is a new theory I heard about that the universe as we know it, 3D, could be some kind of hologram, a projection, and that "the real action" would play out in a simpler, flatter cosmos where there is no gravity .... something to do with string theory but I am not an astrophysic so ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptn Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 If you are referring to Mephistopheles as The Devil and me being some sort of a devilworshipper to explain my small aversion (not hate) of organised religion, no ... keep in mind that Mephistopheles is not the same as The Devil ... I'm aware of that, creating tension wasn't my intention, hence the smiley, sorry for my poor attempt in black (dark?) humour area. Fallen joke I say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mephistopheles Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Don't worry about it!! No tension was created, sometimes it's difficult to understand the underlying in typed conversations .... maybe my answer was a bit blunt as well ... :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panoptes Posted December 17, 2013 Author Share Posted December 17, 2013 i am a militant anti-theist. not only do i NOT believe in any gods, but i feel as though such beliefs and the religions that they spawn are the absolute worst threat humanity has ever known. at best religions and such superstitions thwart our progress as a society and species, and at worst they are the very root of almost all known evils.I'm no militant, but I do agree. @Abasio- Atheists don't think they're the pinnacle of existence, thats a common view held by the three big religions and some others i'm sure. Only theists are arrogant enough to put themselves above other animals. Now if I were to believe in a god it would be a beautiful woman or a cute doggie, non of the old man nonsense. Who wants to hang with an old fart anyway. I also disapprove of how some religions push a binary worldview consisting of absolute good and evil and all that other baggage that goes along with it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abasio Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 atheism doesn't imply something like that. each lifeform in existance is the pinnacle of evolution just as much as any other, simply because it has "managed" to be alive today. if i had to put the stamp of arrogance on one side of this question, i'd rather put in on the belief that humans are superior to other species. we're just apes with a slightly larger lump of fat and protein in our heads, which most of us cannot even use properly . in this respect i'd place the blame for the problems we see today rather on the society we were born in and which we perpetuate and on the ignorant people (who for instance actively support wars) rather than on a malevolent or immature god. but yes, i agree that this rules out a belevolent, all-powerful god. such a being would (by defintion) have had plenty of time to make its existance clear (beyond any doubt) to everyone and would in the same way have had enough chances to improve the lives of the people on here.I'm thinking of the hardcore atheists that strongly believe that there is no chance of anything greater than ourselves. I don't mean the thought that we are the pinnacle of evolution but that our kind of life is all there could possibly be. There could so easily be a form of life so different from our own that they appear as gods, powerful enough that they could have created another species/universe. Something like "the Unmoved mover" of Aristotle ... created by something that is'nt aware of its creation, it just is and we emenate from it .... ? (to put it simplistic)Like our universe is just a fart from a being of unimaginable scale Also interesting is a new theory I heard about that the universe as we know it, 3D, could be some kind of hologram, a projection, and that "the real action" would play out in a simpler, flatter cosmos where there is no gravity .... something to do with string theory but I am not an astrophysic so ...I heard this a while ago, I like the crazy theories. Another is that we are a computer simulation. The theory is that in a simulation you can only zoom in so far before you get to the basic pixels. They've actually found a limit to ho far we can zoom in to our existence making some believe we're just another society's simulation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radi6404 Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I heard this a while ago, I like the crazy theories. Another is that we are a computer simulation. The theory is that in a simulation you can only zoom in so far before you get to the basic pixels. They've actually found a limit to ho far we can zoom in to our existence making some believe we're just another society's simulation. That is impressive. I know this theory but never analyzed it further. To be honest this theory is the most doubtful of all in my opinion, but if you want to find hints, you will find them even for this theory. As far as god is concermed, have you noticed that when you prey, you can sometimes hear your voice in your thought as the man speaking in arch noa? Especially when you are looking at a Jesus portraid. I have noticed it several times and for me it is a big step. I have talked with other people and they noticed it aswell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panoptes Posted December 17, 2013 Author Share Posted December 17, 2013 I'm thinking of the hardcore atheists that strongly believe that there is no chance of anything greater than ourselves. I don't mean the thought that we are the pinnacle of evolution but that our kind of life is all there could possibly be. There could so easily be a form of life so different from our own that they appear as gods, powerful enough that they could have created another species/universe.No atheists actually believe this or I should say this has nothing to do with atheism. I think you're confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radi6404 Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Now this is a bit harsh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padmapani Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 this has nothing to do with atheism. seconded. there may be atheists who think that way, but i bet it's much more prolific with theists who have exactly that written in their holy books ("made in the image of god" and so on...). Another is that we are a computer simulation. The theory is that in a simulation you can only zoom in so far before you get to the basic pixels. They've actually found a limit to ho far we can zoom in to our existence making some believe we're just another society's simulation. that's a funny hypothesis. its proponents argue that being in a simulation is actually more probable than not being in one. the argument goes somethin like: the people in one real universe create a sophisticated simulation of their own universe. after a while the people in this simulation are able to do the same. that goes on for a pretty long time, so for every real universe there are a huge amount of simulations. therefore if you randomly pick your own universe/simulation (actually you pick the one you're in, but from inside you cannot tell which is real and which is a not) you're likely to end up with a simulation. i'm not sure if that kind of reasoning is valid - and it certainly fails if creating such a sophisticated simulation for some reason turns out to be impossible - but it's certainly an interesting line of thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abasio Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 No atheists actually believe this or I should say this has nothing to do with atheism. I think you're confused.While it may have nothing to do with atheism, it's not true that no atheists actually believe this. You can't make blanket statements like no atheists believes this because you've not met every atheist. I have met atheists that did believe this therefore I can say some atheists do believe it. It's a statement like that which is made by the hardcore atheists I've met that I would liken to fundamentalist religious types. Most atheists I have met have not been level 5: 100% sure that no deities exist, because people understand that there are limits to our knowledge and understanding and there is always the possibility, even if we don't fully believe it, that there is more to reality that we have in front of us which means there could be, even if it's a remote possibility, a deity or deity level entity. Some however have the strong belief that no entities like that can possibly exist, they don't believe it, they know it like strong religious believers know that there is a god. You're lucky if you've never met them because they give others a bad name, just like the hardcore religious nut jobs who give normal, rational religious people a bad name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panoptes Posted December 18, 2013 Author Share Posted December 18, 2013 I guess I am lucky. I didn't know there were levels to atheism but insisting you know for a fact is just as baseless as insisting there is. Here is a fun statistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouroboros Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 I'm thinking of the hardcore atheists that strongly believe that there is no chance of anything greater than ourselves. I don't mean the thought that we are the pinnacle of evolution but that our kind of life is all there could possibly be. There could so easily be a form of life so different from our own that they appear as gods, powerful enough that they could have created another species/universe. hmmm....im about as hardcore of an atheist as youre likely to meet. being that as it is, i know and converse with like minded people. i have never met or heard of any person who identifies as an atheist who thinks anything even remotely like that. what does "no chance for anything grater than ourselves" even mean? it is generally atheists who promote the very ideas you are claiming they reject. i dont know too many atheists who feel as though there cant be other forms of life...in fact its just the opposite. its religious teachings and people than espouse the idea that humans are alone in the universe, created by god in his image as the supreme life form on earth. appearing as a god does not a god make. if i were to somehow go back in time 500 years with my cell phone, a car and a zippo...i too would "appear as a god". its meaningless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radi6404 Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Now let´s not generalize and critizise the different groups of people. I just want osay that the current methods of science for sure are not everything there is to know about the unierse, life and afterlife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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