prog4all Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 These days you have a lot of modern music and the level of production quality is extremely high. When listening to some tracks from 2005 for example, you can sense a difference between stuff from 2012. Now what I'm wondering, can quality of music still get any better than it is today? And in what kind of way could it even be better? Because somehow when I'm listening to music (especially psytrance) you would almost think we have reached ultimate perfection. What do you guys think, how will the quality be in like 5 or 7 ears? It's just a stoned thought, but I can't help but wonder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neurogen Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I think about this too. I feel we are about 70% . In 10 years time we will reach perfection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mars Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 It depends mainly on 3 factors: the gear, the mixing, the mastering As of today more artists use a virtual gear and that makes it easier to chop those overlapping/competing frequencies that destroy parts of the sound. No matter if they use analog or virtual gerat, some artists are better at mixing than others. Either because they had the education or they naturally have an ear for that. Also some search the right frequency ranges to put the maximum power in a track witrhout making frequencies to compete (look at the bass/kick rockets they pour into fullon tracks now!!!) And the same goes with the mastering guys who use a more or less advanced gear and know more or less well how/where to enhance/cut the frequencies. I'm not mentioning each substyle which uses different features: prog vs fullon vs dark vs goa. Alltogether, that is an infinite range of possibilities and it would be hard to describe perfection from there. I think now we're in an era where people pay attention to the production, especially as you can well hear defects on a high end sound system or in a party/festival. So there has been a strong motives to improve the psytrance production in the last 15 years, and I think we can now talk about something that's close to perfection and might slightly evolve again but less than what happend in the last 15 years thanks to the above factors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longloststar Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I think that there are reasons to question this whole project of "perfecting production" (or the fact that this is possible at all). What is production quality? Why does crystal-clear sound have anything to do with perfection? What has really improved about the music with the increased power of computers? And has whatever that is, actually made the music better? I think that the reason to be skeptical towards this idea of production-progression is similar to the reason to be skeptical towards the value of fame and fortune in life. It's all surface, it's stuff we quickly get used to, and then notice the important aspects instead and feel that we have wasted our time, caring about something useless to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest antic Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I'll put it this way - if the MUSIC isn't any good, even the best production & mastering won't save it. If however MUSIC is good, then the better the production & mastering are, the more details you can hear and therefore appreciate the work better. All in all, those improvements should not be a goal in itself but can greatly help! I'd agree that we're close to 'perfection' nowadays, because human ears can only hear so much. Which is good, because - just like with gaming consoles at the end of life cycle - you can't anymore improve the 'exterior' but instead have to focus on the content to differentiate yourself from others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnb820 Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 When something has poor production quality, it becomes instantly noticeable. Usually it's because the artist chooses to place too many layers of sound around the same frequency which tends to drown out the sound. I believe the term is bleeding. To the listener, they may have a hard time separating the sounds in their head. The next most common problem is an overemphasis on particular parts of a song, such as too much low frequencies, or too harsh higher frequencies. Finding a delicate balance is the work of a genius. Of course then when you send it out for mastering they could choose to destroy all that hard work in an effort to make it louder. Overall I think most commercial releases in goa trance sound great. Commercial fullon and trance, not so much because they are really pushing the limits of loudness. Compare the new Electric Universe EP to any of the older releases. It's like night and day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolmot Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I think the genre would be vastly improved if people would forget the terms "production quality" and "mastering" altogether for a year and concentrate on making interesting music instead. Currently way too much time is spent on fiddling with the icing while there's no cake. If you have a track on a worn cassette recorded from radio with a mic in the 90s and you keep listening to it, it's probably good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prog4all Posted October 31, 2012 Author Share Posted October 31, 2012 @ mars: That's a pretty clear explanation. By the way guys, I'm not suggesting we put more or less value to production quality. I'm not saying that newer tracks are necessarily better than older tracks either. It's just a thought about how things will evolve in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neurogen Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Yes i also meant the technology. And quality of the sound it self. Has absolutely nothing to do with actual music. Seems ppl misunderstood what OP meant All the filosophy here is imo offtopic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest antic Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Currently way too much time is spent on fiddling with the icing while there's no cake. Actually that's an awesome analogy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollylovesgoa Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I think Newschool Goa still has a long way to go in terms of quality mastering and clarity of sounds in order to make the musical compositions shine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veracohr Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 It depends on what is meant by "quality". Gear is high quality these days, but not everyone is great at mixing, even if they can write good music. A lot of people these days also don't have much sense of arrangement and how it affects the end product. Usually it's because the artist chooses to place too many layers of sound around the same frequency which tends to drown out the sound. I believe the term is bleeding. It's called "masking". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnb820 Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 It depends on what is meant by "quality". Gear is high quality these days, but not everyone is great at mixing, even if they can write good music. A lot of people these days also don't have much sense of arrangement and how it affects the end product. It's called "masking". Thank you. That's what I was looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radi6404 Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 I don't listen that much to new tgoa tracks but in my opinion the music is what matters, not the mastering, Astral projection, Electric Universe, MFG, Hallucinogen, all those and many more had good enough mastering for me to lsiten to them for so long and I stil listen to them, the newer tracks might have better mastering but if they do not sound ithat good the mastering would not save anything. I don#t like most of newschool stuff. When I listen to the latest shpongle and compare it to the first album the production quality is much higher but many tracks of the latest shpongle are fine aswell. and somehow I think the bad production quality of some oldschool tracks made them even more itnersting to lsiten to, the background noise, some peaking here and there, some sharp synthsounds, that made the music sound even more alive and better than steril mastering. For example illumination by mfg, a very muddy track but it sounds great, I don#t even know if it would sound better with a great mastering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sideffect... Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 What mars said is very close I guess, I don't have much knowledge about producing. I think the quality is good, the weakest link influences everything no matter how hard artist/producers try. And in my opinion the weakest link are still the soundsystems, home cinema's, headphones, soundcards, equalizing, to much woofers etc... You can create or master whatever you want, at a crappy soundsystem it'll sound crappy or a soundsytem that is not correct configured or even the room that has bad acoustic... If you invest in a good system the human ear will have it's satisfaction. I invest a lot in headphones, I love my headphones and everything sounds great to my experience... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollylovesgoa Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 I actually agree with Radi about the fact that mastering isn't the most important aspect of production by any means; I think it says something about the quality of Goa being produced today when there are a lot of complaints about mastering (especially on Spiritual Rising, it was borderline unlistenable), but I wouldnt change the dirty, muddy sounds of any old school Goa track i've heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travbrad1001 Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 And in my opinion the weakest link are still the soundsystems, home cinema's, headphones, soundcards, equalizing, to much woofers etc... Yep. So many people listen to music on very low quality speakers/headphones. People spend all that money on music then listen to it on crappy ear buds or tiny portable/computer speakers. You don't need to spend crazy amounts of money to get decent sound either. The difference between $15 ear buds and decent set of headphones for around $100 is enormous. Obviously you can spend more and get even better sound, but I think some $100-ish headphones are a great way to introduce people to good sound. I remember when I got my first decent pair of Sennheisers I was blown away by the richness of the sound and all the little details that I was able to hear. It completely transformed my music listening experience and gave me a lot more appreciation for the music. Speakers/headphones last a long time too, so they really are good investments because they will last many years (or possibly even decades) and don't get me started on people with subwoofers so loud/EQed that all you can hear is the bass... I like bass, but there's a limit where it just gets in the way of enjoying/hearing the music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neurogen Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Yep. So many people listen to music on very low quality speakers/headphones. People spend all that money on music then listen to it on crappy ear buds or tiny portable/computer speakers. You don't need to spend crazy amounts of money to get decent sound either. The difference between $15 ear buds and decent set of headphones for around $100 is enormous. Obviously you can spend more and get even better sound, but I think some $100-ish headphones are a great way to introduce people to good sound. I remember when I got my first decent pair of Sennheisers I was blown away by the richness of the sound and all the little details that I was able to hear. It completely transformed my music listening experience and gave me a lot more appreciation for the music. Speakers/headphones last a long time too, so they really are good investments because they will last many years (or possibly even decades) and don't get me started on people with subwoofers so loud/EQed that all you can hear is the bass... I like bass, but there's a limit where it just gets in the way of enjoying/hearing the music. +1 Ive searched (and spent much money) on finding a pair of headphones and in-ear plugs for my mp3 player that I like. Nowadays my mp3 player is my Samsung Galaxy s2, and it has a very very good soundchip. I use a pair of AKG in-ear, dont know the model name, but they are red-and black, very sexy looking. Costs about 50 euro and they sound soooo good. For my home use, when I am making music and not using speakers I use a pair of Supreme mixing headphones. Supreme is a budget brand but sounds to me, much better than Sennheiser. Sennheiser sound on their mixing headphones to me, is a bit "cold". Ive had a pair of Sennheiser HD25-II - for about 250 euro, but I actually returned them cus it was too cold, I could not get a grip about the basslines properly. I need a deep bass on my headphones when mixing...Almost borderline hifi type bass. This is of course totally individual. I also had a pair of AKG phones, which I loved the most, but I broke them and since I havent afforded to buy a new pair, they cost about 150 euro. But Supreme is sounding equally good for only 30 euro. So yes, end-user experience depends ALOT on how you listen to the music. My speakers have a subwoofer btw, and I have it turned to the lowest possible setting, then up a millimeter or so. I also love bass, but subwoofer bass is too much. So minimal setting possible on that please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mephistopheles Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 wasn't part of the magic back in the nineties that the music wasn't perfect? Make no mistake, I like my music to be crystal clear but perfect?? What is perfect? Perfection is boring I think ; the way to perfection is interesting .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neurogen Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 wasn't part of the magic back in the nineties that the music wasn't perfect? Make no mistake, I like my music to be crystal clear but perfect?? What is perfect? Perfection is boring I think ; the way to perfection is interesting .... sure, most of my favorite tracks are not very good mastered, but in all fairness, i would love for them all to be remastered to "perfection". IMHO. Everytime i listen to them i wish i could have the raw project files so i could remix and remaster it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phargua Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 I sometimes think about this subject, about the evolutions in technology people couldn't think of like 70 years ago for example. They absolutely couldn't imagine watching movies in color with 3D-glasses and surround sound. Probably they were aware of the quality that could become better and better but not about such major changes that pull you INTO the movie. When I think about the previous example, I dream about what kind of major changes in music are awaiting us... Maybe another way of headphones and speakers that have a more advanced spatial element... Not as basic as stereo and panning today but stereo in an advanced way you can't imagine today... When that kind of evolutions will be the standard, that 'ultimate perfection' from today will be old and maybe boring. It's really cool and weird at the same time to think about such things . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veracohr Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Direct neural link! That's the ultimate goal in music technology! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sideffect... Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Yep. So many people listen to music on very low quality speakers/headphones. People spend all that money on music then listen to it on crappy ear buds or tiny portable/computer speakers. You don't need to spend crazy amounts of money to get decent sound either. The difference between $15 ear buds and decent set of headphones for around $100 is enormous. Obviously you can spend more and get even better sound, but I think some $100-ish headphones are a great way to introduce people to good sound. I remember when I got my first decent pair of Sennheisers I was blown away by the richness of the sound and all the little details that I was able to hear. It completely transformed my music listening experience and gave me a lot more appreciation for the music. Speakers/headphones last a long time too, so they really are good investments because they will last many years (or possibly even decades) and don't get me started on people with subwoofers so loud/EQed that all you can hear is the bass... I like bass, but there's a limit where it just gets in the way of enjoying/hearing the music. So true, I always buy BOSE headphones, I'm addicted to them, Don't get me wrong, BOSE is pure ripp off. The wires are so thin that in 3 years I got 2 headphones broken by the wires getting stuck while sitting down, I got up and BAM, wires are broken. The headphones cost 170 euro and just repairing the wires is >90 euros. That kinda sucks. But still after hooking up my mp3 players to other headphones I still end up with the same BOSE headphones. So I've got 3 headphones of BOSE, all the same type, 2 with broken wires and one on my head playing perfectly. And I would buy a fourth If i have to I don't get care, not that I'm rich, but once you are addicted to a certain quality, a certain tone, less is impossible... I never equalize. Releases are what they are and if you listen to original quality you don't have to imo... I like the fact that older goatrance albums sound old, it has a certain atmosphere/magic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoLoUr DoTZ Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 So true, I always buy BOSE headphones, I'm addicted to them, Don't get me wrong, BOSE is pure ripp off. The wires are so thin that in 3 years I got 2 headphones broken by the wires getting stuck while sitting down, I got up and BAM, wires are broken. The headphones cost 170 euro and just repairing the wires is >90 euros. That kinda sucks. But still after hooking up my mp3 players to other headphones I still end up with the same BOSE headphones. So I've got 3 headphones of BOSE, all the same type, 2 with broken wires and one on my head playing perfectly. And I would buy a fourth If i have to I don't get care, not that I'm rich, but once you are addicted to a certain quality, a certain tone, less is impossible... I never equalize. Releases are what they are and if you listen to original quality you don't have to imo... I like the fact that older goatrance albums sound old, it has a certain atmosphere/magic... 90€ for soldering a cable back is definitly not cheap. I would say, try yourself, or look for someone not related to BOSE........ Better than having them lying around and taking space....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sideffect... Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 90€ for soldering a cable back is definitly not cheap. I would say, try yourself, or look for someone not related to BOSE........ Better than having them lying around and taking space....... I've checked that with euhm I don't know the word in english, to connect the wires again, but they are broken very close to the headphones themselves, and It would disturb a lot to have those around my neck... But indeed I should do something with them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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