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DJ'ing with MP3's.


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see this is where it gets interesting!

 

can i hear those tones?? -maybe , maybe not. the low end of human hearing is 20hz

 

but can i FEEL those vibrations ??? HELL YES. THAT is where the difference comes from, and with a good sub, you'll feel it.

 

as far as a true double blind test (no i had to look up your abx) you're right my tests are not that complicated, but i find them uneccessary. most of the tiem the diff in wav to mp3 is like a punch in the face

 

but where on one hand you say i prove your point, at the same time you prove mine.

 

i'm not trying to argue that miniscule differEnces will be heard but i think aT THIS point even you can admit the diff between a wav and a 192 mp3 is giant, and hopefully you also are able to accept that 320 vs wav is also quite a diff.

 

i do know for a fact my hearing is well above the average, and it has run in my family, but i also know the vast majority can tell the difference if given the chance to really listen, just at parties most people don't think about it that much

 

but my point remains the same

there is no good reason to use lower quality audio at a party

what still baffles me is here are people arguing about why we should give the people less rather than more.

really really sad

how much of psytrance actually has frequencies under 20hz ?

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see this is where it gets interesting!

 

can i hear those tones?? -maybe , maybe not. the low end of human hearing is 20hz

 

but can i FEEL those vibrations ??? HELL YES. THAT is where the difference comes from, and with a good sub, you'll feel it.

Proper MP3s will not do anything to those vibrations, once again, research mp3 compression. You won't hear 20Hz but you will feel it, no question here. I am talking about high end (khz), that's where mp3s do their cutoffs.

 

as far as a true double blind test (no i had to look up your abx) you're right my tests are not that complicated, but i find them uneccessary. most of the tiem the diff in wav to mp3 is like a punch in the face

No question I am the best baseball player in the world even though I've never played. I am awesome with a ball so I am SURE of it! That's your argument. If you never ABXed you have NO CLUE about sound differences. It's not a statement, it's a fact. What your brain tells you vs reality is very different.

 

but where on one hand you say i prove your point, at the same time you prove mine.

 

i'm not trying to argue that miniscule differEnces will be heard but i think aT THIS point even you can admit the diff between a wav and a 192 mp3 is giant, and hopefully you also are able to accept that 320 vs wav is also quite a diff.

Not at all. There is no giant difference. Only on some 'difficult' recordings can you hear ANY difference. You know like jazz with trumpets, harps, etc

I said it before and I'll say it again, you will not hear any difference in 99% of tests on trance music. I do not need to admit anything, I am telling you what research has shown and I am going on what I've seen proven scientifically (you know like research and testing) vs what you think you hear.

 

i do know for a fact my hearing is well above the average, and it has run in my family, but i also know the vast majority can tell the difference if given the chance to really listen, just at parties most people don't think about it that much

How can you possibly know that for a fact if you've never been tested? Once again the argument of I know for a fact that I'm an awesome car mechanic since my father is.

You also don't know about the vast majority, I do. I've ran tests, I've seen results, what you are going on is just what you think is happening without any basis for it whatsoever.

 

but my point remains the same

there is no good reason to use lower quality audio at a party

what still baffles me is here are people arguing about why we should give the people less rather than more.

really really sad

This is fine, obviously if you can have lossless then it's great but if for some reason it's a pain then maybe you can disappoint 1 person out of a 1000 for 3 seconds of an mp3 imperfection that they can discern.

 

Maybe your issue is improper compression. You obviously are not too interested in the topic and just write it off as irrelevant so you might not understand that mp3 compression is quite open and different codecs do different things. I am talking about properly compressed mp3s, not some stuff that was ripped/compressed incorrectly and thus has obvious problems.

 

Do you want to humble yourself? Do a real ABX test, I can help you set that up. I guarantee you that if we pick 10 trance tracks at random (very low chance of getting a 'difficult' sound) and do a test with properly compressed mp3s then I can show you that you can't tell them apart and will be within guessing range. Remember, you've never tested yourself, everything else is called placebo. Until you know for sure the rest means nothing, we all exaggerate our abilities but there are tests to prove us wrong.

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The argument can dip into non-scientific territory when we consider that music is a feeling, and we don't have all the answers as to why it makes us feel a particular way. Music tests are accomplished with conscious faculties, but are such practises really giving us the full story? I rather err on the side of caution, as I said, and all it costs me is a bit more disk space.

Heh, there's tons of research in that area too :) Music perception and cognition.

I agree with you that if you have ability to keep lossless everything than that's the way to go, I believe I said that it was the future.

 

What I am talking about is that if it's physically impossible for you to hear a sound then you won't 'feel' it (well if we are going into philosophy here then obviously science goes out the window :) ). Sound compression is not designed by idiots, it has been getting better and better every year (remember, mp3 is quite open so people can keep improving the compression) and newer formats like aac/ogg have even better quality/size ratios.

 

Once again, I do believe that lossless is the future and if you have the ability then you should definitely have your DJing library in that format. Having said that, 99% of people will not be able to tell lossless vs lossy (properly compressed) because there is nothing to tell, it's called transparency.

 

Don't hate on computer DJs because of sound because that's a non-issue (unless they are completely incompetent with their library, which to think of it now I am sure quite a few of them are).

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see this is where it gets interesting!

 

can i hear those tones?? -maybe , maybe not. the low end of human hearing is 20hz

 

but can i FEEL those vibrations ??? HELL YES. THAT is where the difference comes from, and with a good sub, you'll feel it.

:lol: It wouldn't hurt to learn the difference between Hz and kHz before arguing with anyone about sound quality.

as far as a true double blind test (no i had to look up your abx) you're right my tests are not that complicated, but i find them uneccessary. most of the tiem the diff in wav to mp3 is like a punch in the face

You must be using incredibly bad MP3 decoders.

Have you ever tested the spectrum flatness of a typical party sound system?

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how much of psytrance actually has frequencies under 20hz ?

Really id like to know how much of psytrance or any music has these frequencies.. i know B. Lustmord has used these so called infrasounds but can normal subwoofer even play them ?

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Really id like to know how much of psytrance or any music has these frequencies.. i know B. Lustmord has used these so called infrasounds but can normal subwoofer even play them ?

No normal subwoofer can play anything under 20Hz, even 20Hz is too much for a club woofer. There are technologies to produce under 20Hz frequencies but it makes no sense most of the time.

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No normal subwoofer can play anything under 20Hz, even 20Hz is too much for a club woofer. There are technologies to produce under 20Hz frequencies but it makes no sense most of the time.

Yeah thats what i thought .. if you mean "No normal subwoofer can'T play anything under 20Hz" .. There is thing called Rotary woofer tho

 

edit: goddamn dyslexia.. :huh: wtf are you talking about

Edited by Towelie
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Yeah thats what i thought .. if you mean "No normal subwoofer can'T play anything under 20Hz" .. There is thing called Rotary woofer tho

 

edit: goddamn dyslexia.. :huh: wtf are you talking about

Yeap by other technologies I meant rotary woofer :) but you won't see them in any clubs.

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Also, thinking way into the future... I don't know if any of you have ever heard of the mass music dome (http://www.massmusicdome.com/) or sensory domes but I can see clubs evolving into full on audio/visual sensory experiences with ridiculous 150:50 surround sound or something like that... an enormous sphere of speakers, not just some nice stacks, amps, and a few lasers and fog machines.... If something like this were created I sure as shit can tell you that they wouldn't be using vinyl or cd's along with it.

not for me, this thing please...

 

I just want a plain old unused industry hall with some good speakers and some blacklight and backdrops / installations ... not even with these rotating club lights and annoying flashers...

 

And I'd also prefer DJs that do their job with DISCS and not with laptops ... with a lappy it's too easy to fool audience with a pre-recorded set. I mean, yeah, I'm sure that there are some innovative individuals out there that can take mp3 DJing to a new level and yes, I also have heard good DJ sets already where a laptop was involved ... but I've also seen this type of DJ that presses the button and then does NOTHING.

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Sadly enough, I said it would be my one and only post in the thread, but I can not restrain myself after reading RTP's post.

 

RTP: Did you know that the BPM Counter of the most cd players that you find on any parties are just as accurate or even MORE accurate than the one in any program that you have out there? Oh, and you will concur with: Yeah but a good dj does not look at the counter of the player... they ALL do. Its not what you use as your tool when you play out to people that counts, its the result, isnt it? If a dj is a good dj with his laptop and effects, then hes a good dj, if he sucks, he sucks... the same goes for the DISC player i am afraid ;)

 

And like I said before, I still use Vinyl a lot, because I love the touch... but I am for sure as hell not going to be a an old git and a conservatist (yeah I know that word does not exist), because the future will kill (not like taking your lives) the likes of you.

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seen vinyl scratch in action last weekend.. must say i quite liked it..

 

Another thing: people always assume you play mp3 on a laptop. why cant you play higher than cd quality waves? especially if you produce your own music its easy. You dont have to dither back to the horrible soundquality of 16 bits :lol:

 

HD djing will def be everywhere soon.. I am not just yet ready for it.. i prefer cd´s still..

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Guest The Journey Man Project

um I did a set at a free outdoor gig about 2 weekends ago using my girl's laptop and traktor dj studio... I found it really hard to use... with no additional hardware... much harder than using decks. I never use the auto beat match and I don't use the auto analyse thing as the bpm counter is way off (it said that 4 Midi Miliz track were lower than 100BPM ???)

 

Another note, I didn't have to carry a shit load of cd's with me either. The sound was fine... as my mate was videoing the set AND other people at the gig said so as well.

 

I'd like to also point out:

 

Ott uses Traktor DJ studio for all of his dj sets. He never uses the decks. He said so himself many time on Isratrance. Now, he is a damn high level experienced producer, and also he has mastered a lot of fine albums. If mp3 dj;ing is fine with him, who are you pretentious sods to say otherwise?

 

 

It is stupid how so many people here see MP3 as a dirty word or dirt file extension. Why do you see it that way?

 

If somebody has purchased 800 original cd's, and does not want to lug them half way around the world on tour, or even across a big county like Australia, why can;t he/she save time, space and transport costs by chucking them onto a hard disk as mp3's and play them using a professional program like Traktor DJ Studio?

 

 

I can see why certain othe rpro's on this site I've chatted to on MSN think of many who posted in this topic as "children" and very "immature". Many of your comments do not make any sense at all.

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no offense against anybody directly here, but I really don't understand why people are often times thinking that laptop djing means automatically playing mp3's?

 

I would bet shitloads of money that OTT is using wav or flac files within traktor. why should he use mp3's especially as an artist?

 

harddrives are not expensive anymore on a 200gb one can store minimum 2500 tracks in wav format and even 30% more in using flac format. should be pretty much enough for any dj out there. so the point is imo not ripping cd's and converting them into mp3's just for the reason to avoid carrying around all cd's. get a bigger harddrive and do the same with ripping into wav.

 

most important thing is providing maximum quality for the audience. and it doesn't matter whether blind tests can prove that there is no audible difference between mp3's and original (uncompressed) files. there is almost no reason to play with mp3's, but i could name hundreds of reasons why I would always prefer dj software against cdj's.

 

another two cents within this topic

----------

 

p.s.

and yes fiddling around with dj software on a laptop with just a mouse and without external (midi-)controller is a pain in the ass.

 

also keeping not analyzed tracks within traktor in sync means a lot of pitch work which can be annoying and stressful after a while. would prefer cdj's that way as well. to get better results beatgrids in traktor and warp markers in live are your friends.

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RTP: Did you know that the BPM Counter of the most cd players that you find on any parties are just as accurate or even MORE accurate than the one in any program that you have out there? Oh, and you will concur with: Yeah but a good dj does not look at the counter of the player... they ALL do. Its not what you use as your tool when you play out to people that counts, its the result, isnt it? If a dj is a good dj with his laptop and effects, then hes a good dj, if he sucks, he sucks... the same goes for the DISC player i am afraid ;)

Yeah, but I don't care if DJs look at BPM counters or not, that's not the point. Even if you look at BPM counters you have to mix right, the BPM counter doesn't mix it automatically for you. I would most likely look at the counter too. Don't care about that. What I find outrageous is playing pre-recorded sets in the way of pressing a button on the lappy and then just standing there and doing NOTHING! I mean, why is this idiot still on stage when he does nothing, he could even have taken his lappy there, pressing the button and then leaving the stage, would be the same! And that has not to do anything with BPM counters. In fact I'm even happy if they AT LEAST MIX SOMETHING, no freakin' matter if with bpm counter or without, just DO SOMETHING! Otherwise I could as well download a set and dance to it at home...
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What I find outrageous is playing pre-recorded sets in the way of pressing a button on the lappy and then just standing there and doing NOTHING! I mean, why is this idiot still on stage when he does nothing, he could even have taken his lappy there, pressing the button and then leaving the stage, would be the same! And that has not to do anything with BPM counters. In fact I'm even happy if they AT LEAST MIX SOMETHING, no freakin' matter if with bpm counter or without, just DO SOMETHING! Otherwise I could as well download a set and dance to it at home...

you miss a point here: in just pressing the play button on the laptop and let the computer do all the work for you, you'll gain a lot of time during your gig. time you can spend on more important things than actually working on your sets: talk to groupies, roll spliffs, check your emails if wlan is availabe in club or even working on the next predefined set for your upcoming gig. it is really enjoyable to get all the gig money without even working ;-)

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you miss a point here: in just pressing the play button on the laptop and let the computer do all the work for you, you'll gain a lot of time during your gig. time you can spend on more important things than actually working on your sets: talk to groupies, roll spliffs, check your emails if wlan is availabe in club or even working on the next predefined set for your upcoming gig. it is really enjoyable to get all the gig money without even working ;-)

that's exactly what makes me so angry: getting all the gig money without even working!

 

you never could do such a foul number on a metal concert ... audience will rip you to pieces ... but in psy this is common...

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Sadly enough, I said it would be my one and only post in the thread, but I can not restrain myself after reading RTP's post.

 

RTP: Did you know that the BPM Counter of the most cd players that you find on any parties are just as accurate or even MORE accurate than the one in any program that you have out there? Oh, and you will concur with: Yeah but a good dj does not look at the counter of the player... they ALL do. Its not what you use as your tool when you play out to people that counts, its the result, isnt it? If a dj is a good dj with his laptop and effects, then hes a good dj, if he sucks, he sucks... the same goes for the DISC player i am afraid ;)

 

And like I said before, I still use Vinyl a lot, because I love the touch... but I am for sure as hell not going to be a an old git and a conservatist (yeah I know that word does not exist), because the future will kill (not like taking your lives) the likes of you.

+1

 

As nemo said, the result counts. Ofcourse I have a huge respect for people who can mix well, just as I respect choosing the right track for the right moment at a party. But what it all comes down to is the result... not how you got there. The same thing applies to pretty much any form of art. Art doesn' t have to be difficult to be good...

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that's exactly what makes me so angry: getting all the gig money without even working!

 

you never could do such a foul number on a metal concert ... audience will rip you to pieces ... but in psy this is common...

 

lol nothing to add

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that's exactly what makes me so angry: getting all the gig money without even working!

 

you never could do such a foul number on a metal concert ... audience will rip you to pieces ... but in psy this is common...

it's also common that people go to psy simply to enjoy ~music~ instead of watching some rockstar-wannabe twist some freakin' knobs.
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Yeah, but I don't care if DJs look at BPM counters or not, that's not the point. Even if you look at BPM counters you have to mix right, the BPM counter doesn't mix it automatically for you. I would most likely look at the counter too. Don't care about that. What I find outrageous is playing pre-recorded sets in the way of pressing a button on the lappy and then just standing there and doing NOTHING! I mean, why is this idiot still on stage when he does nothing, he could even have taken his lappy there, pressing the button and then leaving the stage, would be the same! And that has not to do anything with BPM counters. In fact I'm even happy if they AT LEAST MIX SOMETHING, no freakin' matter if with bpm counter or without, just DO SOMETHING! Otherwise I could as well download a set and dance to it at home...

Yeah, and you think that because some dj that looks like he is spinning cds is not doing just the same? I am sorry, but being a laptop dj is often MORE work than spinning cds or vinyl. I for one, am finding myself working more, since I am pretty new to this. But to come back to your thing why you are so pissed off, do you KNOW how many djs there are out there that put on a CD or a DAT and then PRETEND to be djing? Funny, there are prolly some of your FAVORITE djs doing JUST that, yet you blame the laptop djs.... oh well, im sorry that I have to say this but I think youre fooling yourself. Dont be blind.

 

edit: I know many djs that pre record the tracks onto a couple of cds, that are perfectly matched to the tracks, and then they just follow the tracklist... thats pretty much the frikken same as just putting on a cd.

 

it's also common that people go to psy simply to enjoy ~music~ instead of watching some rockstar-wannabe twist some freakin' knobs.

:lol: I am good at twisting some freak knobs :D Edited by Nemo
Had more to say! :D
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@nemo: I wanted to write more or less the same but I had only sarcasm left. it obviously didn't work.

 

and hell yes: if using all the possibilities of a dj software, you have to work way more on on your sets than dealing with the limitations of a cdj setup. but i still have deep respect for all dj's out there spinning and actually mixing on 3 cdj's 100 and keeping everything in sync.

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@nemo: I wanted to write more or less the same but I had only sarcasm left. it obviously didn't work.

 

and hell yes: if using all the possibilities of a dj software, you have to work way more on on your sets than dealing with the limitations of a cdj setup. but i still have deep respect for all dj's out there spinning and actually mixing on 3 cdj's 100 and keeping everything in sync.

what if I tell you I can keep 4 vinyls in sync? would I be super cool then? :lol: I hear ya friend! :)
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  • 2 weeks later...

Bump.

 

Please discuss about these frequencies that you 'feel' that supposedly are left away from mp3's :lol:

There is nothing to discuss. If you mean low bass frequencies then as long as speaker can reproduce them you will feel them because of the physical vibration that your whole body will perceive (not just sound in ear). The thing is though that these frequencies will not be cut from properly compressed mp3s (you have to actually force the compressor to cut them, otherwise they will be left intact).

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There is nothing to discuss. If you mean low bass frequencies then as long as speaker can reproduce them you will feel them because of the physical vibration that your whole body will perceive (not just sound in ear). The thing is though that these frequencies will not be cut from properly compressed mp3s (you have to actually force the compressor to cut them, otherwise they will be left intact).

Well as far as i know these low frequencies you cant hear are usually cut away from the original recording so they wouldnt stress the speakers for nothing. Or am i wrong ?

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