Moai Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Who said that I thought it was all him? Besides that, I am talking about the guitarrs, which I never even thought it was him in the first place. And ummmm how can you tell if he uses sounds way more intelligent than any of us here on the board? He might be a genius, but other people DO have skills you know. Just because this is a webboard, doesnt mean that there are no skilled people around here.... 211156[/snapback] believe me, i have heard of people who believed he recorded everything on his own, and was hugely dissappointed when they found out and spit their hate over shpongle... well i cant blame one if one looks up to them like gods.. thats will always get u dissapointed. i agree u could argue that he uses samples, but i believe they are good samples, and that he uses them as inspiration, and not as a mere "stealing" from other artists talent whith shitty noise in the background. its all about composing u know.. well i could make some sounds with my synth.. but should i give credit to the company wich made the synth, alas the sound of my work, or to my self, or both perhaps?! where is the line for "stealing" and using as inspiration?!! Hell everything is samples.. maybe in my opinion i have not heard of anyone using samples better than simon.. but well you can be my guest.. show me some samples that i can awe @ and in the end dont you really believe simon would have wanted to create tracks without samples? recreating something as tales of the inexpressible with no samples at all is no easy task.. it would indeed be god status to such a talent .. but for me he is a guy with a godly vision, in wich he puts into his music! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moai Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Sorry Moai but you can't say rubbishes with impunity. I can't stand this snobbery around Shpongle, it's really boring... And I know about what I am talking: the turkish (an not arabic) vocals used in "around the world in a tea daze" has been put like this in the track, copied and pasted, taken one after the other, in Voices of Istanbul, without effort to fit with the rythms, without notable sonorous work. I am sorry to break the legend, but the use of these samples in this track, when you know this samples CD, is simply and definitly shameful. Asura built Lost Eden around these voices and spanish laments, and to be honest, we hadn't listened to Tales of the inexpressible yet when the album Lost Eden was launched. We took every interesting (for us) parcel of sample, every phrase (and not whole sample) and created an order so that it'd be our track center theme, so that it'd create an autonomous melody according to a spanish crying women, and so that, without shocking the ear, it could fit the rhythm, orchestration and soul of the track exactly. You can say you dislike or hate our work, no problem, but don't speak about the work of a track you do not even know the title (re listen to it before), and don't say Shpongle worked a lot to put those samples in this track in the future. It's absolutly false. Buy Voices of Istanbul and you will see I am right. There is a single voices bank in this samples cd (other samples are rhythms), and Shpongle absolutly plundered it. I am not against uses of Sample Cds, and particularly this one, of course, we are using them a lot. Moreover, I have to say that I respect Shpongle, even if I prefer Celtic Cross from Simon. But the fantastic (hoooooooo) and awesome (haaaaaaaaaaa) use of Sample by Shpongle is really a trickery (he??????) concerning this track. It's for a long time I wanted to say that, well, cool, It's done, I feel really lighter 211186[/snapback] hey asura! Yes i know it is named lost eden! i just couldn't recall it at the time of writing! well my respects to you, but i sensed a disharmonia when listening to this turkish (sorry, sounds similar ) singing on your builds! maybe it was just me, but perhaps i am also biased since i heard this sample first on around the world, and what i cant stand is 10 artists using the same samples (such major samples as these) if they know other artists already used it! but in your case maybe u didnt know it Surely i dont believe the voices of istanbul use by shpongle is of any unimaginally artistery at all, but i believe he have tweaked other samples very good! and when i listen to when the Turkish (!) sample comes in i believe everything else he throws in aside fits well with the sample.. that is what i mean.. that he finds other elements and sounds that accompany this sample. that his taste of sounds is just my cup of tea! and i believe that also is a talent you have to count in!.. its not only about technical data! what im really pointing at is that some people seem to think that as long as u buy some sample cd's u can make a shpongle album.... i believe it is not that easy! And i have never said i disliked your track lost eden! it has some good elements!! i have never said you are doing bad productions!! its only the use of the sample that i personally didnt think it fit in as good (actually i didnt feel the harmony of this sample at all acompanied by your music) with the rest of your background as the shpongle version. if i have offended you i'm sorry and i hope u realize what i mean that its not only about modyfiing a sample technically, but also to know how to mix it together with the rest of the track to make a wholeness! and in this case i just personally favoured the tea daze cup!! such sweet aroma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moai Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 But we are not talking about just some samples here that he arranged. We are talking about ripping OTHER peoples hard made music. You know who Paco De Lucia is? 211159[/snapback] no, i have not heard this.. but i have heard the frisbee rip-off .. still this is not "the same type of music" so i think it is ok.. still i think this track it was not right.. but its not usually the case that this happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slyman604 Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 i wasnt trying to slag simon for useing samples, THATS WHAT SAMPLE DISKS ARE MADE FOR. for people to take the samples of instruments sounds they otherwise would not have access to and make some sick music with them. Your a retard if the magic is taken away because simon didnt go to mongolia and record some overtone singer, instead some other person did. Im confused by the delucia sample though, it seems hard to believe he wouldnt clear a sample from someone so well known to put on the one pystrance album that could be heard enough to raise some eyebrows. Then also i cant believe delucia would clear such a lenghty sample of his playing for an electronic album or that twisted could afford such a thing. From what ive read about delucia, hes a real arrogant prick(not without merit, hes 10 times to flamenco what posford is to psytrance), i would think an electronic album would be "below him". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gusc Posted January 14, 2005 Author Share Posted January 14, 2005 im crying now. simon and raja were my heroes. i dont know anymore. can someone please mail this guy and ask him why he has taken one minute 'paco de lucia' into his song? and asura is talking about more samples that "tales" are including. gah, i wish i never read it in the first place. i wish i closed the window and thought to myself "these people are just talking bullshit. simon is earth, and raja is his moon." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuff Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 what im really pointing at is that some people seem to think that as long as u buy some sample cd's u can make a shpongle album.... i believe it is not that easy! Well said, It doesn't really matter if it is samples as long as the result ends up creative, inspirational and the spirit is kept. It matters HOW the samples are used. And for me, Shpongle is a breath of fresh air in this corrupt jungle (the whole musical biz) of lame producers using other less-well-known (but as usual: with way more talent) artists work. What I really hate is those assh*les who are sampling some underground club tracks and makes hits out of them, earning hell of a money of work they didn't create on their own. Now i'm not talking about Shpongle, and they sure aren't getting any MTV hits or things like that either. But for me who have been listening to all sorts of electronic/dancemusic the past 10 years, immediately hear when good old "unknown" well-produced-underground-high-potental-tune is sampled. And always by some lamer who doesn't give a shit about anything, it has happened alot of times and made me angry. They amorally take advantage because of some good music that has been produced and released at a point when the public market wasn't ready for it - because the underground always is YEARS ahead of the commercial music in evolution. I mean for an example, a hardhouse (or whatever it's called; acts like Brooklyn Bounce and Scooter) group called Warp Brothers had a huuuge hit on the meatmarket dancefloors (and commercial radiostations) some five years ago with a tune called "Phatt Bass". Warp Bros' contains two guys, and together with Aquagen (another group of two - so now it's 4 producers...) they releaed "Phatt Bass" as their own track. But the whole rush behind their hit-track was the sound of 303's and the hammering 4-on-the-floor beat. And the crappy thing is that they lifted those superbly well sequenced 303's and the whole beat straight from an underground release on Missile Records from back in 1995 - Pump Panel "Confusion". Pump Panel are two Swedish guys (Alexi Delano & Cari Lekebusch) and an Englishman (Tim Taylor). Their original tune is, as stated, three 303's going simultaneously, a monster of a breakdown/buildup and NO cheese in sight! An excellent bangin´ underground acid'ic anthem. But who cares about that now when Warp Brothers took it, spiced it with some cheese, got themselves a commercial success and took all the credit themselves... This used to be called stealing - but clearly the modern commercial music industry lacks all ability to make moral decisions! The same group sampled Josh Winx massive "Higher State of Consciousness" and got themsleves a hit of Josh's work (and if i remember right, even here without clearing the sample). Can you believe it? Four idiots (Warp Bros + Aquagen) behind tracks that they barely didn't even make on their own. Using samples of the monsterous 303's that Alexi Delano, Cari Lekebusch and Tim Taylor synced togheter back in 1995. (Heck I don't think WarpB+Aquagen even have seen ONE TB-303 in their whole pity lives. And if they have.. i bet they don't know how to use it.) And for mentioning @ssholes.........Scooter - They are frikkin big where i live, people won't bother listening to creative electronic dancemusic with an edge, they prefer the cheesy Scooter crap over everything. But in fact, that pile of shit group hadn't been able to create a single hit if it weren't for those samples everywhere. They sample & steal main details and ideas from Supertramp, DJ Rolando, KLF, Art of Trance, Vangelis, Shut Up & Dance, U 96, Depeche Mode, Marc Cohn (/ Cher), Abba, Soft Cell, Billy Idol ...etc etc. And their (teenage¿) fanbase swallows it like nothing, Scooter gets away with it as heroes for their passive, lame crowd who really believe their 'idols' are talented and comes up with all those catchy lines themselves. It's surprising how successful that thing goes (another example to study: DJ Ötzi). Yeah i know, i sound crazy but as i said: I fucking hate when shitheads samples underground stuff and take all the credit themselves, it's just so lame... But study these thing before you flame Posford and Raja for sampling much ! The art of sampling will hardly be more perfect (in terms of quality) than what Shpongle has been able to accomplish. [ damn this reminder (caused by meself tho) ruined my whole evening ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asura Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 No problem MOAI, you didn't offend me! It's just that sometimes, I think that Shpongle is a bit overrated by certain aspects, that's all. And the case of Tea Daze is most significant example. But If you love this track, sorry to have been harsh, I respect totally your taste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinos Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Now now. Everybody uses speech samples don't they? That's not wrong, right? Even though they are from movies and the like? Why would musical samples be wrong? Nontheless, Simon does not have to copy bits of tracks to make incredible music, so he most likely has a good reason for this. And hell, it's not like Tea Daze is the best Shpongle track anyway. BTW: Why do people complain only if Shpongle uses samples, but not if somebody else does? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gusc Posted January 14, 2005 Author Share Posted January 14, 2005 Nontheless, Simon does not have to copy bits of tracks to make incredible music, so he most likely has a good reason for this. And hell, it's not like Tea Daze is the best Shpongle track anyway. 211290[/snapback] very well said. but i hope he has been a bit more careful with paco de lucia-parts at the new album. BTW: Why do people complain only if Shpongle uses samples, but not if somebody else does? 211290[/snapback] because they make the most magnificent electronic music on earth. it almost scares me sometimes. and thats probably why people are being so shocked about these samples. they thought simon posford was god. including me. but we were wrong. hes not god. only a electronic musician with a great sence of melodies and rhythms. but i still love them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moai Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 No problem MOAI, you didn't offend me! It's just that sometimes, I think that Shpongle is a bit overrated by certain aspects, that's all. And the case of Tea Daze is most significant example. But If you love this track, sorry to have been harsh, I respect totally your taste. 211287[/snapback] no harm! im sorry if i've been yelling out bad stuff without thinking before.. i usually just go with the flow -- in fact i dont love tea daze as much as some other tracks on tales cd.. mostly because i rather enjoy more psychedelic stuff rather than these sample vocals and jiddish stuff! but i still think it's a piece of art to have "cutnpaste" these samples and get it to work well with his own recorded violins, percussions, pads, fx etc. it feels original and inspired, rather than sample a good sample to "cover up his own production flaws". and where is the boundary for sampling? take a look at hip hop and you'll see this is ALL ABOUT sampling!! but it is in many cases a sampling in creative ways, for evolution of the originals and inspiration as top notch producers usually never steal loops from other similar music! The worst thing to do is to steal material made by other producers that is making similar music!! There is one thing i feel just a bit sadness towards.. and that is the music simon stole from other artists (like the frisbee track).. but i can look through it because he was barely doing like hip hop producers mainly do in their work.. if he can take the sample to higher levels together with his own twists, ideas and sounds, then that's inspiration and evolution from my perspective. Nothing wrong as long as he doesnt steal a loop from saafi brothers or something! revealing old music to a new light is highly refreshing for me! Especially when it is ethnic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davinox Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 Who cares? When you're high, you're not thinking about where it came from, but what planet you're on! Besides, I've only downloaded Shpongle anyway, so I can't say anything. (Although I bought Twisted) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gusc Posted January 15, 2005 Author Share Posted January 15, 2005 Who cares? When you're high, you're not thinking about where it came from, but what planet you're on! Besides, I've only downloaded Shpongle anyway, so I can't say anything. (Although I bought Twisted) 211511[/snapback] the trance-music-scene is becoming more and more tiring every day walking by. you dont need pills to make music touch you. you need feelings. or: a punch in the stomach by aphex twin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davinox Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 the trance-music-scene is becoming more and more tiring every day walking by. you dont need pills to make music touch you. you need feelings. or: a punch in the stomach by aphex twin. 211521[/snapback] hehe... i actually have a great natural appreciation for music of all types, not just psytrance... shpongle, though, to me is tripping music. always has been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hels Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 I mean simon could well create flamenco guitars on his computer... hell, I can, and simon is light years ahead. 211095[/snapback] Bullshit. Let's see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest djnemo Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 Bullshit. Let's see it. 211541[/snapback] Its quiet simple to re-create Guitarrs if you know how to play guitarr, and if you have the right tools. But to make it sound flowing and real, it takes a lot of skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinos Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 Bullshit. Let's see it. 211541[/snapback] OK. I take it you want exactly FLAMENCO guitars, right? I'll have to find a good synth first, but I'll upload it in some time. If an ordinary guitar or electric guitar is enough, I can do it right now. Also look at what Nemo said: It's easy to make the guitar, but hard to make it sound flowing. However, looking at what else Posford can do, I'd bet he is able to do that too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hels Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 OK. I take it you want exactly FLAMENCO guitars, right? I'll have to find a good synth first, but I'll upload it in some time. If an ordinary guitar or electric guitar is enough, I can do it right now. Also look at what Nemo said: It's easy to make the guitar, but hard to make it sound flowing. However, looking at what else Posford can do, I'd bet he is able to do that too. 211582[/snapback] Let me know when you do because I don't believe you. I want to see you make some realistic flamenco tremolo or strumming or rest-stroke runs Can you even tell the difference between the sound (just on one note, let's say) between a flamenco guitar and a classical guitar? Between a nice flamenco guitar and a crap one? Do you know what the difference in playing technique is between classical and flamenco that causes the sound to be different? I'd like to hear a real sounding electric guitar too...but I think that would be easier to fake...but again: can you make a jazz guitar tone vs. a heavy metal lead vs. a country/blues player...I have yet to hear a true to life replication of any type of guitar tone...or pretty much any real instrument at that, though they're getting closer with phyiscal modeling type synthesis... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinos Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 I'd like to hear a real sounding electric guitar too...but I think that would be easier to fake...but again: can you make a jazz guitar tone vs. a heavy metal lead vs. a country/blues player...I have yet to hear a true to life replication of any type of guitar tone...or pretty much any real instrument at that, though they're getting closer with phyiscal modeling type synthesis... 211674[/snapback] Electric guitars are really easy, anyway. (while flamenco seems to be too complicated for my limited skills) At least the screamy metal ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bahamut Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 You can't make a spanish guitar by synthesis if that's what you mean. It will never really sound like a guitar, just like you can't make a good piano or any accoustic instrument. If you want to get close to natural sounding guitar playing, it would have to be done with samples... maybe some natural sounding effects could be accomplished by manipulating one sample... but the best way would be using multisamples.. which means that for every slight nuance in sound there would have to be a seperate sample. But that would be impossible to work with. Shpongle - Dorset Perception... it's simply real guitar playing. Just listen to the solo at 4:50... this part can't be done with any synth, rompler synth or sample set.. it's just prerecorded guitar playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest djnemo Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 You can't make a spanish guitar by synthesis if that's what you mean. It will never really sound like a guitar, just like you can't make a good piano or any accoustic instrument. If you want to get close to natural sounding guitar playing, it would have to be done with samples... maybe some natural sounding effects could be accomplished by manipulating one sample... but the best way would be using multisamples.. which means that for every slight nuance in sound there would have to be a seperate sample. But that would be impossible to work with. Shpongle - Dorset Perception... it's simply real guitar playing. Just listen to the solo at 4:50... this part can't be done with any synth, rompler synth or sample set.. it's just prerecorded guitar playing. 211691[/snapback] Yeah, but the question here is: WHO played it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trolsk Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 No the Paco de Lucia sample is obvious, I have the track right here, and I listened very careful to it, its EXACTLY the same.... 211167[/snapback] What's the name of the track? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest djnemo Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 What's the name of the track? 211707[/snapback] Introduccion Y Pantomima Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moai Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 Yeah, but the question here is: WHO played it? 211706[/snapback] Silver Flute in C and various vocal exhalations Raja Ram. Programming, Synths and a bit a guitar by Simon Posford. Vocals by Michele Adamson and Abigail Gerton. Cellos and fake acoustic bass by Harry Escot. Various acoustic Guitars by Pete Callard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Towelie Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 Introduccion Y Pantomima is the intro of the around the world in tea daze.. not in dorset perception.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest djnemo Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 Introduccion Y Pantomima is the intro of the around the world in tea daze.. not in dorset perception.. 211731[/snapback] Who said that I said it was in Dorset Perception? I just wondered if Dorset Perception might be "ripped" as well since around the world.... was Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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