Elysium

I guess this is the exact issue where we do not agree at all. To me they sounded like someone copying heavily from the following underneath artists. I simply fail to see how they were close to being unique as when I listen to their in your opinion amazing and in some people's opinion "groundbreaking " first release (probably based on the fact many of those who think it's groundbreaking did not know what came before IM as they were introduced to the scene via IM due to their clever promotion strategy) all I hear are sounds I've listened to many times before in the underneath mentioned artist names. Yes they had a good production but that does not make them unique. IMO Sandman MFG Tandu Astral Projection to name a few appearing in my mind when I listen to IM's first releases incl. The Gathering.

Taste is taste mars. That's all I am going to say.

I did not say Copenhagen was a melting-point. Please read what I wrote again. I was merely objecting to your statements that danish artists was not as influential as UK artists in that period of time. Also please explain to me if you were part of the scene in those days or if you get your info from articles and various internet based stories about the scene?This is important to me to understand where your statements come from (not that I think your statements are of less value - but they might not be 100% accurate).

Funny is that I lived in London at the time (end of 1995 - mid of 1998) and as I recall the danish artists was in high demand all over the world being asked to play live and DJ and looked at just as popular as those you mention (based on the fact we had the same number of bookings and released on the same labels) and danish artist was also in high demand in London where we worked with many artists in various side projects. Of course London was a meeting point in music (as it's always been) but fact is many of the popular projects of that time was made up by international artists and of course UK artists meeting up in London or living there because of the easy access to studios. I personally played in clubs all over London and Brighton regular and was basically busy playing every weekend around the world alongside the ones you consider to be the top names. In normal week days I worked with music at the legendary Butterfly studio (Owned by Youth - founder of Dragonfly records) remixing example ZodiacYouth and creating many projects there (One even being top seller for a whole year all over Europe). So to say Denmark (who had some amazing clubs and parties equal top international names playing there every weekend from 1992 - 2000) or danish artists was less important or influential (or paled in comparison) to this scene is in my book dead wrong and is not based on facts but on stereotypes which you find in many wrong written stories about this scene. Written by a small elite (usually from UK + Goa Gil) who usually think they have the right to take all the credit from the many who contributed to what this scene was in the 90's. I'll never accept the way the history of this scene is being written by this elite. IMO

They played in Copenhagen a few times a year and I did not see (at the one party I attended) anything exploding (except for some silicone bimbo's flashing their teddy bears). On the contrary people kinda laughed at them when they pressed start on a CD player and pretended to be rock-stars This was in 1999 as far as I remember. Well we both like a good debate and it's nothing personal...just good fun ... nice picture he he

Nope you are right I did not like it. I do not recall how many times I've heard that lead sound and the other sounds used in the 90's

I've seen many festivals explode where IM was not playing. That's not a valid argument

Good for you dude. Now can we get back on topic?

I think you need a good lesson in this scene's history as The "goa or psytrance" scene indeed had some pretty big and influential names from Denmark dating back to 1991 (Overlords). Overlords (their classic "Sundown" is probably one of the biggest selling Goa tunes in this scene's history) KoxBox Elysium Sheyba to name a few (many more came a few years later from mostly Denmark and Sweden). Actually Mike Maquire reviewed my debut album in Dj Mag around 1995

I am allowed to generalize here as 99.9% of all studios around 1990 - 1996 used Atari running the first and early versions of Cubase 1.0. Dumb question but who the heck is Zirrex? Never heard about this artist @ Sideeffect I will still object to your statement that IM was loved by the majority as there's no factual analysis saying the majority liked them in the "real world" away from the internet (psytrance internet forums are mostly used by geeks like us and is not at all representative for the masses out there who visit parties and festivals). Fact is that I have met just as many people in real life in the scene who did not like IM (or did not put them on a pedestal as some do in these forums) as there are die hard fans on the internet Maybe we should keep the generalization within the borders of these forums

My only objection was to the blunt generalization you and mars used. Indeed advertising can cause people to steer toward a certain artist but I can let you in on another fact. Spacetribe played more international gigs than Astral in those days. I know because around 1995 or 1996 I talked to Oli at a gig in Hamburg about his gig schedule and it was massive (As I recall it was 2-3 gigs a week) whereas Astral at that time complained to me while we hang out in Tel-Aviv that they did not have enough international gigs . So it's not as black/white as you and mars made it. Funny thing is today Astral is probably more busy than ever touring. I myself never really got that much into Spacetribe (except for a few tunes) but then again I also never really got into Astral in the way some did (To me the music simply got way over the top with too much focus on melody and less on being deep). My 2 cents Wrong again I never liked it and I know more people who never liked it too (especially those who as me saw the obvious copying of other (especially Israeli) artists in their music). But this is a taste issue of course

Are you serious? You can not close a topic in a public forum just because you do not like the way the debate is going.

Yes my mistake I thought you had dragged up an older debate.

#11 was a joke/irony Link and the 2nd one was an honest opinion where I acknowledged that there is good and bad dark psy (the bad also being the projects with the Wicca/Devil topic included). I did not see myself add anything regarding Wicca or Devil references into the debate here. Whereas you was the one bringing up the issue in a response to me that had nothing to do with what I was talking about That's why I get the feeling it's a very sensitive issue to you.And by that it's my final word about this issue as the whole debate here are going in circles leading nowhere.

I did not even think about or mention the devil thing here and was merely speaking in general terms regarding the music itself based on common logic which is that if a scene has that much "junk" (This is not my personal opinion) then that scene will be looked upon at as a scene where the music is of less quality. Now this apply to most scenes these days so don't take things too personal. On a side note some of you guys seem very sensitive regarding the "devil" issue as it basically you guys who keep bring it up in the debates here

Even though I tend agree there's still one factor being ignored here and that is that when 95% suck (according to those who does not like the music) then it's obvious that the wast majority of music that suck will become the music the scene is judged upon.

My bad then

Come on now that's not a valid argument and based on a blunt generalization So because Astral was on more compilations their music was considered better? By who? You and Mars based on your individual taste or all the rest of the people around the world you seem to have made yourself a spokesman for? Maybe look at how good Astral were at the promotion game instead of generalizing P.S! Sometimes I feel some of you lived in a parallel universe in another scene than the one I lived and breathed in all during the 90's

"Problem" is there is no right or wrong here as fact is that each country had it's own phase of genre labeling the music (UK labeled it Goatrance before Psytrance and Denmark labeled it Psytrance before Goatrance) . It would be an endless debate with no end result as you can see from people's posts

But you have to look at this as a individual statement based on one person's (in this case Mike from Juno - I think - or a group of people from UK) opinion and a case of the UK scene. In Denmark (If i remember correctly also in the rest of Scandinavia and Germany) it was the other way around where the music was called trance and then psychedelic trance before the Goa wave hit Copenhagen on that Boat party I mentioned earlier. So there is simply not only "one truth" here. It's subject to each country and how the people of that country labeled the music.

You still fail to understand my point or maybe I do not explain it well I am absolutely not caught up in what people decide to call my music. To me it simple does not matter as long as my music somehow fit the description (of course I would object if my music suddenly was labeled as Polka). Yes I laughed and still laugh at people (but I do not laugh at them in a degrading way) who call my music Goatrance simply because in my book Goa is a place where people went to put up parties and played various music (no one called EBM or Industrial as Goa-EBM or Industrial Goa just because it was played in Goa). But that does not make their genre description less wrong or less valid just because I do not share their opinion in how music should be labeled. Bottom line is simply that I am not caught up in what people call music as you seem to be and by that I do not feel like telling anyone what the music should be called or not called. It's up to people and basically none of my business - of course as long as they honor my style of music and do not take the genre description of my music too far off the track.

With my previous statement I did not say that new technology is bad. Heck I have embraced it 120% But it does explain why a heck lot more people make music these days due to how easy it is to set up a digital home studio. And when you got x-number more people having fun making music today than earlier it's only natural that a lot of the music is of mediocre quality (both production-wise as well as composition-wise) simply because the amateur artist have absolutely no experience in studio technique and composing. .But then again you also find real original gems and artists who maybe never would have had a chance to make music if they had to invest a lot of money into big hardware studios. It is never black/white I do think the real "problem" is within the labels these days. Way too many labels was opened up by unprofessional amateurish people who thought they could open up a label and release their "friends" music and be successful. Problem is a label is a business and require professional people (or at least people who know what they are doing) in order for the label to flourish and even more important in order to build up an artist name and career. I beleive the real "problems" of this scene (beside the obvious fail of sales due to internet growth) is a combination of bedroom labels and people who should never have access to releasing their music professionally. I do see a direct connection between the above mentioned problems and example the Goa scene today (but it's not a unique situation in the Goa scene). If the labels (incl. those who say they know what they are doing) would honor quality control a bit more strict there might be less but in the end much better releases being released. Now you can not prevent people from releasing their own music these days. But we are still part of a scene where people still consider a release on a a label as an artist blue stamp of approval. At least here a change would benefit the scene. IMO You mention it was hard to find releases in the old days. Heck no it wasn't. There were records shops selling almost every release and it was way easier to find music based on your taste simply because those working in the records shops would come to know your taste in music and would recommend new releases to you Yes promotion and PR has become every man's tool but that does not mean it's become more professional. On the contrary the majority of artist have very limited knowledge about Marketing & PR. There is a reason why people are educated in this field and why big labels hire professional Marketing people to promote the artists.

I agree with Mars that it's just Goa (I also do not like the name Neo Goa - sound like some SS Nazi thing to me) trance but then it also should be subject to way more critical ears (among listeners and labels) as the genre has been here for years now and hardly is new even though the artists making Goa these days are young and some probably not even born when Goa peaked Point is that I do not see any development here. On the contrary I see stagnation caused by the fact that (IMO) most of the releases try too hard to sound "original" and by that fail to stand on it's own. Also I am not convinced this genre will expand and see it's 2nd revival beyond the attention it's getting these days. Maybe I am wrong but I believe there is need for development and evolution here for this genre to become big again. My 2 cents.

I think we have to be careful not generalizing here and speak for everybody but keep it to a "IMO" Now I actually agree as of course there were complaints (as there is in any scene in any year). BUT let's be honest here now. At those days it took a hell lot more to make a tune. It took hardware studio access and a bit more knowledge regarding equipment and studio technique. Basically those who ended up on vinyl and CD's had studio and composer experience whereas today 95% have absolutely no or very limited studio/technical/composer experience before they get released. It's here the big difference is found. IMO P.S. I compare artist in the Goa/Psytrance scene here but basically it apply to any electronic scene these days even though it's more difficult to be released on respected big labels in example the House scene than being released on a respected "big" label in the Goa/psytrance scene. But that's worthy of another independent debate