Elysium Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Thank You. You have a totally valid point. That is the kind of stuff I want to see. But, you are not validating the reason why we need Goa Trance. From your timeline Goa Trance only popped up for what a year? The reason why I don't validating anything is because I do not see any reason to validate anything as I believe genre debates are nitpicking really. I see no reason in debating if a genre is valid or not. If a genre name is used by the majority in a scene then its real and valid IMO And regarding my timeline you read it wrong But maybe I should have made it more clear I meant the starting years where after the genres are running side by side. To cut things short here. To me personally the whole damn thing melted together around 1996-97 and became one big melting-pot where some called it Goa and some called it Psytrance. Basically the music was from the same Stew. An example is that all the music no matter the genre naming was played all over the world side by side - incl. in Goa. To me there real gap (where people for the 1st time got divided within the scene) began with Nitzhonot followed by Full-on taking the music in in a much more commercial "pop-music" direction and ending up far away from the original music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djmaxfactor1995 Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 Never gonna happen. Psy trance has evolved into the kind of stuff that I posted up. Goa has evolved to into a more melodic faster paced type of music. You will never succeed so you may as well give up. I am not trying to succeed at eliminating Goa Trance. I am seeking to eliminate the term if it is being used redundantly. But, you state that Goa Trance deserves a separate classification from Psytrance? If that is true, than I have succeeded at separating Goa from Psytrance. Did your example earlier state that the Sun-trip track was Goa and the E-Clip one is Psytrance? Because, I don't see that. That one you call Goa Trance is formulated almost exactly as Pleiadians or Total Eclipse. I just don't see that there is enough to separate. I can hear the difference you are talking about. But that is exactly the formula for Infected Mushroom. Who, I believe took an element from Hallucinogen and exploited it. And now that I see the identical sounding tracks still being played. It makes me want to vomit. The 12/8 Swing-like time signature from Fluoro Neuro Sponge has been beaten to death. And, please tell me why people think that Hallucinogen made any Goa Trance Tracks. I saw someone say FNS is a Goa Track. Well that means LSD is a Goa Track? And why is he call himself Hallucinogen. Why not Goagen or Goa Ranger. Or, why not Goangle. And while I am let it all hang out let me just say that Infected Mushroom is the biggest biter of Hallucinogen, ever. No wonder, Posford switched to Shpongle. And the Psytrance example you gave me is identical to Infected Mushroom. According to you, I can conclude that the entire psytrance scene is based from what IM stole from Hallucinogen. You mean it has never changed in the last 11 years. It is still one IM track after another? And the Etnica, KoxBox, X-Dream, Prana, etc. are the Goa Trance artists? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djmaxfactor1995 Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 The reason why I don't validating anything is because I do not see any reason to validate anything as I believe genre debates are nitpicking really. I see no reason in debating if a genre is valid or not. If a genre name is used by the majority in a scene then its real and valid IMO And regarding my timeline you read it wrong But maybe I should have made it more clear I meant the starting years where after the genres are running side by side. To cut things short here. To me personally the whole damn thing melted together around 1996-97 and became one big melting-pot where some called it Goa and some called it Psytrance. Basically the music was from the same Stew. An example is that all the music no matter the genre naming was played all over the world side by side - incl. in Goa. To me there real gap (where people for the 1st time got divided within the scene) began with Nitzhonot followed by Full-on taking the music in in a much more commercial "pop-music" direction and ending up far away from the original music. Okay so, as I thought it was about a year. And, just to clarify you are saying that in this year. The music was all the same but some people decided to call it Goa Trance and others called it Psytrance? Okay, that would explain the confusion and inconsistency. But, what you describe as nit-picky is not. My argument is why is Goa Trance and Psytrance still used to describe the same music? And, now it is why do people distinguish them as being separate types of music? As you state, it's the same. If I called Front 242 an awesome IDM Band. And, I called Aphex Twin a good Industrial Band. Would you think that was good. This interview quote of yours tells me how you what you think of Goa Trance. So, I guess it doesn't bother you that people tell you, you do great Goa Trance. This ignorance has obviously affected you. But, you don't care that people can't properly identify your work? Or most artists in this Genre, for that matter. I don't think in any other style of Music there is such inconsistency and ignorance in the title of the Genre alone. This is what you call nit-picky, I call a frightening use of language to ineffectively communicate. And this can be reconciled. I am not asking your opinion on Abortion rights or Drug Legalization or the Death Penalty. That would be a pointless debate. Here is your quote: "I sometimes laugh at people telling me that I do great goa trance... I have never been to Goa so how can I make goa trance - why not Copenhagen trance then....???? Goa is to me a place in India - not a music style... For me it was a natural evolution from the early electronic music I made and it could just as well have been acid jazz, trip hop or house. It all depended on the time and place and my love to music.... I had been living in the UK for a while when I discovered the early techno/azid boom and I loved the parties in barns across the country..... When I returned to Denmark I meet a old girlfriend of mine and she took me to a "trance party" in Christiania in Copenhagen... This was 1993 and the music here was extremely psychedelic and deep and I just fell in love with the sound immediately... After a year of intense dancing I went to the studio and recorded my first release with R&S Records (Belgium) and released the project "Tundra". I was offered a better deal with Nova Zembla Records and signed the deal with them in 1994 and changed the name to "Elysium" the rest is history...." Quote from Elysium Interview on this Website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sideffect... Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 I don't interpret that I am a purist because I was there. I think we all are purists and seek valid information based on fact and not on emotion. I certainly am not better or less than anyone, and I would never want someone to think that way because that means they think of themselves as better or less than others. And that is not true. We are all humans. We all live on Earth. We all are equally invaluable. Good! And like you say, You were not the one using the 'purist'. True! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormion Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 The terms people use for musical genres, artistic movements, historical eras, etc. evolve naturally through common usage. Sometimes terms fall out of fashion and get changed to others, sometimes they don't. It's rather pointless to try to change these things intentionally. If you personally don't want to associate this music with Goa, just stop using the word. Lead by action, not persuasion. +1000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysium Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 You still fail to understand my point or maybe I do not explain it well I am absolutely not caught up in what people decide to call my music. To me it simple does not matter as long as my music somehow fit the description (of course I would object if my music suddenly was labeled as Polka). Yes I laughed and still laugh at people (but I do not laugh at them in a degrading way) who call my music Goatrance simply because in my book Goa is a place where people went to put up parties and played various music (no one called EBM or Industrial as Goa-EBM or Industrial Goa just because it was played in Goa). But that does not make their genre description less wrong or less valid just because I do not share their opinion in how music should be labeled. Bottom line is simply that I am not caught up in what people call music as you seem to be and by that I do not feel like telling anyone what the music should be called or not called. It's up to people and basically none of my business - of course as long as they honor my style of music and do not take the genre description of my music too far off the track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Procyon Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 I have to give my 2 cents, for I still have all the CDs: 1978: Disco faded away, and a Chicago guy spinning his vinyl faster (accidentally) started House 1982: House arrives in Detroit mixed with black music, then Techno was born 1984: House arrives in England, and mixed with the then eurosynth pop. Progressive House was what the likes of The Drum Club were doing. The word Trance yet to be used. 1986: The Summer of Love sends House skyrocketing. The vocal tracks were still called House. 1992: In this six years, Techno, Trance and House were still 'single' parents, no subgenres yet. 1993: A melodic electronic music from India sweeps UK Clubs, as it came from Goa expats, it was dubbed Goa Trance - for it had more elements in common with the then pop-trance. 1994: In an interview for i-D Magazine, July, one of the members of Juno Reactor says that the music they were doing was 'pyschedelic'. The rest you guys know. So, according to what I know, psychedelic came years after Goa. IMO, Chicago House is the mother of all 'hypnotic' music we know now. Goa is the father. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysium Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 1993: A melodic electronic music from India sweeps UK Clubs, as it came from Goa expats, it was dubbed Goa Trance - for it had more elements in common with the then pop-trance. 1994: In an interview for i-D Magazine, July, one of the members of Juno Reactor says that the music they were doing was 'pyschedelic'. The rest you guys know. So, according to what I know, psychedelic came years after Goa. But you have to look at this as a individual statement based on one person's (in this case Mike from Juno - I think - or a group of people from UK) opinion and a case of the UK scene. In Denmark (If i remember correctly also in the rest of Scandinavia and Germany) it was the other way around where the music was called trance and then psychedelic trance before the Goa wave hit Copenhagen on that Boat party I mentioned earlier. So there is simply not only "one truth" here. It's subject to each country and how the people of that country labeled the music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Puppy Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 once you guys get this all settled someone needs to update Wikipedia on the matter. and then make it mandatory reading before joining the site to get everyone on the same page. It would be nice to know what music is labelled what just for the sake of someone else arguing about it. But here in the midwest United States I can go through about 30-50 people before I even find someone who likes trance, let alone even knows there are subgenres of it. I had a friend post some kind of video game music to my facebook the other day then asked me at work last night if I got that "trance" he posted. ?? clueless. I know with the metal scene.. I'm sick of seeing debates and flame wars over what's labeled as what. Used to be death metal, speed metal, black metal, hair metal.. now we have metalcore, speedcore, deathcore, dark industrialcore too many damn cores! personally.. I just either like the music or I don't.. it's not like I spend the entire length of the song wondering in my mind.. "now is this song GOA, Psytrance, Darkpsy, ??" knowing that my background on the subject is less than the length of this post. and with regards to a previous post about genres bringing people together .. realistically that goes about as far as the individuals. From 1960s US Hippies we like to think yea they were all about peace love roses and butterflies but then we also heard about communes that were full of abuse rape murder theft and extortion.. Seems like there's always someone wanting to pee on the good parade and with so many people and so many ways of manipulation and trickery, human nature has us killing all good things eventually. sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysium Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 once you guys get this all settled someone needs to update Wikipedia on the matter. and then make it mandatory reading before joining the site to get everyone on the same page. "Problem" is there is no right or wrong here as fact is that each country had it's own phase of genre labeling the music (UK labeled it Goatrance before Psytrance and Denmark labeled it Psytrance before Goatrance) . It would be an endless debate with no end result as you can see from people's posts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Puppy Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 "Problem" is there is no right or wrong here as fact is that each country had it's own phase of genre labeling the music (UK labeled it Goatrance before Psytrance and Denmark labeled it Psytrance before Goatrance) . It would be an endless debate with no end result as you can see from people's posts yea no shit reading this thread is killing my buzz haha I'm gonna go mow my lawn and listen to TRANCE while I do it. but I'll be back to read more later. seriously guys I've learned a ton from this site and I continue to learn about a genre I've known hardly anything about for 15 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sideffect... Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 "Problem" is there is no right or wrong here as fact is that each country had it's own phase of genre labeling the music (UK labeled it Goatrance before Psytrance and Denmark labeled it Psytrance before Goatrance) . It would be an endless debate with no end result as you can see from people's posts Indeed, like mentioned before but not that detailed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotwang Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 You have to be careful with not dictating how the whole world and worldwide scene named the music. Please note that I stated more than once (including in the material you quoted) that I was specifically talking about how the terms are used on Psynews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysium Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Please note that I stated more than once (including in the material you quoted) that I was specifically talking about how the terms are used on Psynews. My bad then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djmaxfactor1995 Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 Please see the following, as it is the best I have found: Goa Trance For what it's worth, the only trance genre that still has some integrity left. Goa is just too complicated, too dark, too brooding, and too ominous to ever have popular appeal, and it's doubtful that it ever will....and that's just the way hippies like it. Imported from India, duty free, where it is so hot the DJs don't even bother mixing or else their faces melt off (and that's BEFORE you drop acid). There are a million and one splinter genres to this too (hard goa, progressive goa, psyfunk, ambient goa, etc...), but I'm only putting down the most prevalent. As for the rest, it's terrific stuff, if all the annoying, superficial hindu and buddhist iconography doesn't annoy the hell out of you. Goa would be the best genre ever, if it weren't for the fucking hippies. Psychedelic Trance The difference between Psychedelic and Goa Trance is really negligible, and if you ask anyone involved they'll readily say that there is no difference, much the same way that junglists will say there is no difference between Jungle and Drum n Bass (even though there is). To put it succinctly, Psychedelic Trance removes the hindu/middle-eastern influences and melodies and full-on blasts you with mindfuck music...teleport zappers, star trek tweeps, nintendo twerps, theremin squeels, feedback hums and radio antennae frequency squelches. Well...Goa might have all that stuff too. Hmmmm. Let's say this instead: Goa is more organic, and Psy is more cybernetic. But they're both futuristic sci-fi music. Okay, fine: they are the same damn thing. But there's just so much good music here to only squeeze in one genre. And if you think I'm done here, wait until you check out Psytekk. It's like HR Giger on acid. ISHKUR'S GUIDE TO ELECTRONIC MUSIC In '96 the music had changed so much from its Goa beginnings that the term Goa trance no longer seemed suitable and the new term of psychedelic trance, or psytrance for short, was coined to refer to this new style of music. The multi-layered melodies of Goa trance were stripped away and a darker and more repetitive form of music concentrated on rhythm and groove appeared. A landmark album of this change would be '98's album Radio by X-Dream. In 2002, melodies became popular again, heralding the beginning of full-on psytrance. Currently, there are many sub-genres within the psytrance scene, including minimal/progressive psy, morning psy, full-on psy, and dark psy. There has recently been a movement attempting to 'return to the source' and bring back the original Goa trance sound, such as Metapsychic Records and Suntrip Records, which are dedicated to reviving the roots of the scene and promoting artists trying to recapture the original feeling of the music. PSYCHEDELIC TRANCE ENCYCLOPEDIA I give up...thanks for changing my mind, well actually thanks for allowing me to clarify what I knew. I guess my motives were more personal. I HATE HIPPIES! OVER AND OUT ___________________________DEAD AIR___________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotwang Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Please see the following, as it is the best I have found: [...] It's worth bearing in mind that Ishkur's guide was written a long time ago and hasn't been updated; terminology may have changed. Don't know about the other source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djmaxfactor1995 Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 It's worth bearing in mind that Ishkur's guide was written a long time ago and hasn't been updated; terminology may have changed. Don't know about the other source. Hey Rotwang: How do I close a topic that I started? I don't know how this suffering will end but I would like to euthanize it now while it still has some dignity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysium Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Hey Rotwang: How do I close a topic that I started? I don't know how this suffering will end but I would like to euthanize it now while it still has some dignity. Are you serious? You can not close a topic in a public forum just because you do not like the way the debate is going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotwang Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Hey Rotwang: How do I close a topic that I started? You can't, only mods or admins can do so. I can't see why you think it's necessary, though - the debate is perfectly amicable. Sorry, but since other people seem happy discussing the subject in this thread I'm not going to close it right now (you can of course edit your own posts if you're unhappy about something you wrote). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Puppy Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 hmm.. it says on that psychadelic trance encyclopedia article that darkpsy can reach bpms of 500.. anyone have examples of this? guess I could do some research.. I'm just interested in hearing bpms that freakin high. edit: Just listened to some on youtube.. it's a cross between windows crashing to a blue screen while playing music that doesn't end (garbled noise ensued) til you manually turn it off, and perhaps a machine gun shot into the air for 5 minutes straight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom! Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 I am not trying to succeed at eliminating Goa Trance. I am seeking to eliminate the term if it is being used redundantly. But, you state that Goa Trance deserves a separate classification from Psytrance? If that is true, than I have succeeded at separating Goa from Psytrance. Did your example earlier state that the Sun-trip track was Goa and the E-Clip one is Psytrance? Because, I don't see that. That one you call Goa Trance is formulated almost exactly as Pleiadians or Total Eclipse. I just don't see that there is enough to separate. I can hear the difference you are talking about. But that is exactly the formula for Infected Mushroom. Who, I believe took an element from Hallucinogen and exploited it. And now that I see the identical sounding tracks still being played. It makes me want to vomit. The 12/8 Swing-like time signature from Fluoro Neuro Sponge has been beaten to death. And, please tell me why people think that Hallucinogen made any Goa Trance Tracks. I saw someone say FNS is a Goa Track. Well that means LSD is a Goa Track? And why is he call himself Hallucinogen. Why not Goagen or Goa Ranger. Or, why not Goangle. And while I am let it all hang out let me just say that Infected Mushroom is the biggest biter of Hallucinogen, ever. No wonder, Posford switched to Shpongle. And the Psytrance example you gave me is identical to Infected Mushroom. According to you, I can conclude that the entire psytrance scene is based from what IM stole from Hallucinogen. You mean it has never changed in the last 11 years. It is still one IM track after another? And the Etnica, KoxBox, X-Dream, Prana, etc. are the Goa Trance artists? K then..... E-Clip sounds NOTHING like Infected Mushroom. IM are extremely rock orientated with a little bit of psy thrown into the music. I don't like them - never have and never will. Goa has an extremely distinct sound. There are certain tracks which cross over both Goa and Psy. I guess Khetzal is a prime example of that - his stuff is much darker and twisted than say Astral Projection or Dimension 5. Be interested to know seeing as you have an extremely good knowledge of old Goa / Psy.. do you remember a psy track that was kaned back in 1996 on Radio 1 by Danny Rampling which used a sample from an american guy giving a speech at the Isle of Wight festival in the 70's? Rampling said the track was by 'Mystery Machine' called 'Psychedelic Concentration Camp'. I've been looking for it for 15 years and never managed to find any mention of it anywhere!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Procyon Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 But you have to look at this as a individual statement based on one person's (in this case Mike from Juno - I think - or a group of people from UK) opinion and a case of the UK scene. In Denmark (If i remember correctly also in the rest of Scandinavia and Germany) it was the other way around where the music was called trance and then psychedelic trance before the Goa wave hit Copenhagen on that Boat party I mentioned earlier. So there is simply not only "one truth" here. It's subject to each country and how the people of that country labeled the music. Two things: with all due respect to Copenhagen, the epicenter of electronic music in the golden days were London, Detroit and Chicago, each in different levels. Never heard that Scandinavia was important to electronic music, until PsyForest came around. And if I have to bet my house on who said what, I would bet in what Mike Maguire and Paul Oakenfold said to iD. Of course, it was a personal point of view, but then the names involved in the article (Juno Reactor, Herbal Tea Party, Return To The Source, Green Nuns of The Revolution, Dragonfly, Prana) all then making part of an exciting new music, decoration, lifestyle that was the talk of the efervescent London club scene, makes that article a piece of music history. You have to remember that at the time, internet was not something you would know what it was. All sort of info, good info, came from magazines. iD was what the likes of Psynews, Saikosounds, Isratrance and Psychedelicgarden are today: it was the 'place' where you would learn where to buy CDs, read reviews on albums and parties, what to wear, where to go. It was in iD where I first learned about glow decoration, and after reading a preview of a party to be held in Osaka I decided to go, my first party ever - so, iD was the bible of electronic music in the 1990s. Not only to Goa, but to house, techno, balearic (do you guys remember that?), ambient, and to a diminishing degree then , also to punk and gothic. So, in the end, I believe in what the likes of Juno Reactor and gang said: Goa came first, psychedelic after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Time_Trap Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 In my book, Goa Trance is Psychedelic trance, but psychedelic trance isn't necessarily goa trance. Psychedelic trance is the general,more abstract term, and then it can be divided to subgenres like goa , suomi or dark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karan129 Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 In my book, Goa Trance is Psychedelic trance, but psychedelic trance isn't necessarily goa trance. Psychedelic trance is the general,more abstract term, and then it can be divided to subgenres like goa , suomi or dark Precisely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysium Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Never heard that Scandinavia was important to electronic music, until PsyForest came around. I think you need a good lesson in this scene's history as The "goa or psytrance" scene indeed had some pretty big and influential names from Denmark dating back to 1991 (Overlords). Overlords (their classic "Sundown" is probably one of the biggest selling Goa tunes in this scene's history) KoxBox Elysium Sheyba to name a few (many more came a few years later from mostly Denmark and Sweden). Actually Mike Maquire reviewed my debut album in Dj Mag around 1995 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.