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if all these artists are touing the globe making thousands of euro, how come they always bitch about not being able to live off their music? What a silly statement, please give me confirmed statistics, not dreamed up facts... secondly, breaking copyright is stealing.  If you have read copyright law, that is 100% what it is there for... and yes, when I do not have the money,  do not eat, or I have to borrow the money to get food.  This is not a problem now as I have a full time job, but it was when I was studying. But music is nothing like food, so I made a bad example as well... let us say if I was into paintings, and I did not have the money, I cannot just go and steal a painting from an art gallery, so you should not steal music.  there have many many many cd's I have wanted and havemissed out on because I do not have the cash.  I accept this as a simple fact of life ;)

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first of all, who says you HAVE to live off music? im not saying you cant, but thats an assumption that is not an absolute truth.. if you start making psy and come with this assumption, you´re likely to be dissapointed.. I know that solely having a psychology degree may not be enough, and maybe I cant live with just that, and need secondary jobs, or more diplomas, or smt..

 

or also people who go to movie universities would love to make their independent 1000-dollar budget movies and get their living with it, but most of them know maybe that doesnt happen because they are hardly payed enough to buy their breakfast... so artists may well want to live with music, but its not an obligation of the world to support them.. it may happen, but it may also not.. and if its not, dont go blaming mp3s only, because there are thousands of other reasons why its hard to make a living off this genre..

 

as for breaking the law, I already said, if you´re gonna follow the law blindly, then start complaining about djs.. their whole job is illegal.. Read the copyrights of any cd, it says that public vehiculation of that cd is not allowed... or go complain with djs that post mp3 dj sets on the net.. its also not allowed...

 

but are we really going to be blind about the laws, or are we going to accept that there are different contexts and each case is different, its not like: ´oh, you have mp3, you´re evil ´

 

 

as for the art galery, once again you´re giving a wrong example because THE ARTIST IS NOT LOSING ANYTHING when I download it, its a COPY..

A better example would be if I go to an art gallery and TAKE A PICTURE (without flash, because it doesnt damage the original hehe) ..... ;)

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Abandoning the 'going with the flow' thing for a moment, I am interested if you could kindly tell us how you would 'alter the system' and convince those who do not want to pay for music in any circumstances and make them pay. Is it through boosting paid downloading services? I am sure some artists and labels could find it interesting if your suggestions are constructive.

Pedro

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What, it's not obvious? I would not have people pay for recorded music at all... I'd have it treated as a promotional tool to obtain booking for live gigs. Physical CDs will continue to be printed but the charge could only be for the costs of the disc itself.

 

Of course this isn't a model that would work for everyone, but such a system could easily work within the traditional industry of labels and distributors all doing their usual thing.

 

Change is not all or nothing; it's a gradual process... I would just like to see some more free releases available for download in wave format. I do not hope for the day where physical CDs are a thing of the past, but would encourage a cottage industry of handcrafted products.

 

Is this getting less vague for you? ;)

 

As far as trying to fight the downloading habits of people all over the planet and try to shore up CD sales without doing anything significantly different, all I can say is 'the writing is on the wall'...

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Guest The Journey Man Project

I'm not talking about making a copy... I"m talking about the law. Making the copy, or downloading a copyrighted piece of work is illegal. Pretty simple no? and a photo of a paintig is completely different to owning the original version, whereas making a copy of a cd is making an exact copy of theoriginal no? i mean, sure you don;t get the artwork etc of the cd, but that is usually by somebody else anyway. Look, I've had enuff, obviously, as I stated earlier, tho who enjoy downloading ILLEGAL mp3's or making illegal copies for friends will pull any excuse out to justify what they are doing, as they have already damaged their morals and can no longer understand what is right or wrong... ;)

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Sherlockalien, your explanation of 'going with the flow' made me laugh ("acting according to the situation and not having blind ideas that can not be reached...").

 

I have read and re-read your comments and it is mostly mindless drivel. In all of it, you have failed to make a single valid, sensible explanation of why you should steal other people's music.

 

Do not let what DJs should or should not do keep you from not supporting the music you love. And just because other people trade and download illegally (and it will always continue), it does not follow that you should do so as well.

 

Whether trance artists can or can not live from their music (and whether they should expect to do so) are interesting topics for discussion. And certainly the world does not owe a living to every artist who deems himself the next great entertainer. But I fail to see why we should not pay for his or her music if we download it.

 

Do what is right, Sherlockalien, and stop obfuscating the issue and deflecting your responsibility to pay for the music.

 

 

 

 

Pedro

 

 

PS I hope you at least purchased the Antix CD you keep raving about. Please, at least that one.

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I'm not talking about making a copy... I"m talking about the law.  Making the copy, or downloading a copyrighted piece of work is illegal.  Pretty simple no?  and a photo of a paintig is completely different to owning the original version, whereas making a copy of a cd is making an exact copy of theoriginal no? i mean, sure you don;t get the artwork etc of the cd, but that is usually by somebody else anyway.  Look, I've had enuff, obviously, as I stated earlier, tho who enjoy downloading ILLEGAL mp3's or making illegal copies for friends will pull any excuse out to justify what they are doing, as they have already damaged their morals and can no longer understand what is right or wrong... ;)

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looks like you didnt get my whole point... black and white thinking...

 

btw.. THERE IS NO OBJECTIVE RIGHT OR WRONG... That should be quite obvious.. What is moral for one person or culture is imoral for another..

 

dont inflate your ego thinking your moral is any better than anyone else´s, ok my friend? I respect you with your opinion, so please respect me, instead of saying I got no morals and saying I cant understand whats right or wrong.. Right or wrong only depends on what is your AIM, on what game you´re playing.. Im not a fool that just blindly downloads all things without ever supporting the artists in anyway, I do things consciously, I think about what I do.. ;)

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Guest The Journey Man Project

:lol:

 

dude take a deep breath... it's a debate on an online forum, tkae a breath mate...

 

well let's see... when you break the law, the courts generally see it in black and white, you broke the law, it is wrong, kapish?

 

 

now you can say morals are different for each person, no if you have ever studied morals, they are actually what society thinks, not the individual. Moral value is a judgement based on what your culture, you society and what you family have taught you. Not something you decided upon in the spur of the moment coz you don;t have a spare $13.95US in your wallet...

 

so if I believe wht you have just spurted out in a moment of ridiculous anger over and online debate, if I dj, play Elysiums track from Quality Relaxtion that I have downloaded ILLEGALLY or my best mate sent me a burnt copy, and the cops or lawyers serve me a writ to go to the court, I'll just tell 'em my moral values are different so you can't sue right? :lol: dude you make me laughe soooo hard :lol:

 

 

ps I paid for my copy a coupla weeks ago elysiums and PKS, just an example :D

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Sherlockalien, your explanation of 'going with the flow' made me laugh ("acting according to the situation and not having blind ideas that can not be reached...").

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glad I could make your day fun ;)

 

I have read and re-read your comments and it is mostly mindless drivel. In all of it, you have failed to make a single valid, sensible explanation of why you should steal other people's music.

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if you think my posts are to explain why I should steal, seems you didnt at all get my point.. Im not justifying anything, im just showing how thigns are not so black and white.. Do you think djs are also stealing when they play other people´s music in parties? do you think djs are also stealing when they put online mixes? well, its against the law, and they are making money out of breaking the law.. at least im not making money with it ;)

 

so back to what I said: its not blind ´downloading music is bad´.. Im saying it has advantages and disadvantaegs, and IT EXISTS, regardless if you want it or not.. so if you feel you loose by it, then ACT IN A WAY THAT DIMINISHES YOUR LOSTS..

 

 

Do not let what DJs should or should not do keep you from not supporting the music you love. And just because other people trade and download illegally (and it will always continue), it does not follow that you should do so as well.

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And who says I dont? I go to a shitload of parties, have organized parties before and buy my fav records .. not to mention advertise and made many friends who had never heard about trance start liking and going to parties too ;)

 

Whether trance artists can or can not live from their music (and whether they should expect to do so) are interesting topics for discussion. And certainly the world does not owe a living to every artist who deems himself the next great entertainer. But I fail to see why we should not pay for his or her music if we download it.

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would you buy all cds if they were worth 50e each minimum, and if there was a big chance of the post loosing your orders? thats what we have to face here in brazil...

 

Do what is right, Sherlockalien, and stop obfuscating the issue and deflecting your responsibility to pay for the music.

Pedro

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and once again a person that things he knows whats ´right´.. lol.. I wonder when will people get the OBVIOUS fact that there is no such thing as right or wrong, it all depends on the games you´re playing ;)

 

and what is the issue, and how am I obfuscating it? I think im getting to the point I want pretty clearly

 

PS I hope you at least purchased the Antix CD you keep raving about. Please, at least that one.

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;)

 

http://www.discogs.com/user/sherlockalien

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well let's see... when you break the law, the courts generally see it in black and white, you broke the law, it is wrong, kapish?

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yes, in a way.. but I dont blindly follow the rules, I follow them only when they are to my personal advantage.. and sometimes I dont follow the rules if I feel breaking will be best for me or for someone near me ;)

 

 

now you can say morals are different for each person, no if you have ever studied morals, they are actually what society thinks, not the individual.  Moral value is a judgement based on what your culture, you society and what you family have taught you.  Not something you decided upon in the spur of the moment coz you don;t have a spare $13.95US in your wallet...

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hmm.. yes and no.. Yeah sure the ´super ego´ is learned from outside, but I believe in an inner Conscience, which is not what society feels but what an individual feels with it´s awakened mind :)

 

 

so if I believe wht you have just spurted out in a moment of ridiculous anger over and online debate, if I dj, play Elysiums track from Quality Relaxtion that I have downloaded ILLEGALLY or my best mate sent me a burnt copy, and the cops or lawyers serve me a writ to go to the court, I'll just tell 'em my moral values are different so you can't sue right?

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nope, I never said that... Dont know how you came to that conclusion.. And the connection of moral values and the laws, lol.. where did you come up with that?

 

ps I paid for my copy a coupla weeks ago elysiums and PKS, just an example :D

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yes I payed for my copy of quality relaxation too... but before buying it I illegally downloaded it ;)

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would you buy all cds if they were worth 50e each minimum, and if there was a big chance of the post loosing your orders? thats what we have to face here in brazil...

 

 

http://www.discogs.com/user/sherlockalien

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Oh, I see. It is the Brazilian postal service. That is an interesting excuse.

 

 

 

Pedro

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I"m talking about the law.  Making the copy, or downloading a copyrighted piece of work is illegal.  Pretty simple no?  and a photo of a paintig is completely different to owning the original version, whereas making a copy of a cd is making an exact copy of theoriginal no?

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You're not making too much sense. A photo of a painting is actually a pretty good analogy for an MP3, and you seem to think that's okay.

 

Drugs are illegal... so are many kinds of sex in a lot of places. People still do this stuff - it's human nature... same goes for the emerging world of computers and online communications: it's seemingly not within human nature to consider an immaterial thing as possessing the same kind of inherent worth a physical object might.

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Oh, I see. It is the Brazilian postal service. That is an interesting excuse.

Pedro

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you didnt answer my questions.. seems you are the one deflecting from the main points ;)

 

 

let me make it straighforward for you:

 

do you think anything illegal is inherently bad and should be punished, independent on who came up with the law, when it was brought up, who does it benefit and what is the context ? If yes, then:

 

are you against djs, since they ARE doing illegal act when they play other people´s music at parties and when they upload dj mixes?

 

 

if not, then:

 

who will say when the laws can be broken and when not? are you the one who judges that?

 

 

and second round of questions hehe:

 

would you or would you not buy cds if they costed 50 euro minimum each?

 

Do you think a poor person has no right to listen to music just because he/she cannot afford it?

 

do you think artists, labels and listeners should fight against mp3s, even if mp3 trading will always exist? Dont you think since it already exists and there´s no way around it, maybe its better to use the money, energy and time in making ways to diminish the losses for those who feel they are loosing with it?

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Guest The Journey Man Project

do you think anything illegal is inherently bad and should be punished, independent on who came up with the law, when it was brought up, who does it benefit and what is the context ? Yes

 

If yes, then:

 

are you against djs, since they ARE doing illegal act when they play other people´s music at parties and when they upload dj mixes?

 

Not if they have paid for the music, having spoken to my brother in law who works in copyright law, there is a loop hole in many countried for this ;) But if they hve not paid for the music themselves, then I think they should be punished.

 

who will say when the laws can be broken and when not? are you the one who judges that?

 

No, unless I become either a laweyer or judge ;) Or musician for that matter...

 

and second round of questions hehe:

 

would you or would you not buy cds if they costed 50 euro minimum each?

 

Yes, actually, before I owned a credit card, psytrancecd' cost here minimum $35-30US and I bought over 100 for that price ;) I'd pay the 50 Euro, but would buy less music.

 

Do you think a poor person has no right to listen to music just because he/she cannot afford it?

 

Yes, but there is plenty of free music festivals in my town, good music played by street musicians (including some wicked electronic producers) and I'm sure the poor person should getoff their arse and get a job, hell, I had to shove my finger up a guys arese for 4 years to make him shit... so don't talk to me about crap job or hard work, get off you fat arse and work!

 

do you think artists, labels and listeners should fight against mp3s, even if mp3 trading will always exist? No, but people should pay $1 US per mp3.

 

Dont you think since it already exists and there´s no way around it, maybe its better to use the money, energy and time in making ways to diminish the losses for those who feel they are loosing with it? Yes, but it still does not give mr Sherlockalien or any other human the right to download illegal mp3's :)

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you didnt answer my questions.. seems you are the one deflecting from the main points ;)

let me make it straighforward for you:

 

do you think anything illegal is inherently bad and should be punished, independent on who came up with the law, when it was brought up, who does it benefit and what is the context ?  If yes, then:

 

are you against djs, since they ARE doing illegal act when they play other people´s music at parties and when they upload dj mixes?

if not, then:

 

who will say when the laws can be broken and when not? are you the one who judges that?

and second round of questions hehe:

 

would you or would you not buy cds if they costed 50 euro minimum each?

 

Do you think a poor person has no right to listen to music just because he/she cannot afford it?

 

do you think artists, labels and listeners should fight against mp3s, even if mp3 trading will always exist?  Dont you think since it already exists and there´s no way around it, maybe its better to use the money, energy and time in making ways to diminish the losses for those who feel they are loosing with it?

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You must seriously be joking, Sherlockalien. Anybody who reads your post can easily see that you are straying from the issues at hand. I do not have the time, patience or inclination to be sucked into debate of what is law and justice with you.

 

Instead, let me answer your justice and legal questions as follows: you should pay for the music that you enjoy for two simple reasons (1) it is the legal thing to do and (2) more importantly, it is the RIGHT thing to do.

 

I am sorry (and disappointed) if you feel different.

 

As for your other questions:

 

a- CDs costing EUR 50: I do not where you are ordering these CDs from, but I have just did several 'test' orders with Saikosounds.com and chaosunlimited.co.uk and the costs are nothing like that. For example in Saikosounds, airmail shipping costs for 5CDs to Brazil from Hong Kong is only USD 12.50 for all five CDs. That is USD 2.50 (just under EUR 3) per CD. Even by special courier, it only costs USD 38 (USD 7.5 each). Furthermore, I have purchased trance CDs in Brazil (made in Brazil) and they also did not cost me USD 50. Are you being dishonest?

 

b - Poor people and music: poor people do not have the right to steal music. I can understand the economic incentives to do so, but it also is not right. Poverty can be an explanation why sometimes it happens, not a justification.

 

c - I realise Mp3 trading will always continue. I have mentioned this SEVERAL times already. All I am doing is asking people, particularly those in these forums, to please support the artists that we respect.

 

I do hope this settles the matter. This debate is now getting a bit boring, I have made my points (which are hardly controversial or indeed particularly amazing) and I regret that I shall not be responding to any further e-mails from you, Sherlockalien, in this thread.

 

Unlike you I have no wish to make thousands of posts in these forums.

 

Bye.

 

 

Pedro

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You must seriously be joking, Sherlockalien. Anybody who reads your post can easily see that you are straying from the issues at hand. I do not have the time, patience or inclination to be sucked into debate of what is law and justice with you.

 

Instead, let me answer your justice and legal questions as follows: you should pay for the music that you enjoy for two simple reasons (1) it is the legal thing to do and (2) more importantly, it is the RIGHT thing to do.

 

I am sorry (and disappointed) if you feel different.

 

As for your other questions:

 

a- CDs costing EUR 50: I do not where you are ordering these CDs from, but I have just did several 'test' orders with Saikosounds.com and chaosunlimited.co.uk and the costs are nothing like that. For example in Saikosounds, airmail shipping costs for 5CDs to Brazil from Hong Kong is only USD 12.50 for all five CDs. That is USD 2.50 (just under EUR 3) per CD. Even by special courier, it only costs USD 38 (USD 7.5 each). Furthermore, I have purchased trance CDs in Brazil (made in Brazil) and they also did not cost me USD 50. Are you being dishonest?

 

b - Poor people and music: poor people do not have the right to steal music. I can understand the economic incentives to do so, but it also is not right. Poverty can be an explanation why sometimes it happens, not a justification.

 

c - I realise Mp3 trading will always continue. I have mentioned this SEVERAL times already. All I am doing is asking people, particularly those in these forums, to please support the artists that we respect.

 

I do hope this settles the matter. This debate is now getting a bit boring, I have made my points (which are hardly controversial or indeed particularly amazing) and I regret that I shall not be responding to any further e-mails from you, Sherlockalien, in this thread.

 

Unlike you I have no wish to make thousands of posts in these forums.

 

Bye.

Pedro

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cds cost the same here as if it would cost 50e there, simply because:

 

- Devaluated money (the price of a cd here is about the cost of 3 meals.. the cost of a cd for you guys is barely enough for one meal)

- we have to pay 60% taxes for every imported cd

 

so it would be the equivalent of you guys paying 50e per cd

 

;)

 

 

as for supporting the artists: I do believe in it too...I mean, if artists never got any incentive, why would they release the music? If there was no incentive I wouldnt have had the possibility of listening to that marvelous antix cd :lol:

dont mistake me for a 14 year old killaaaaargh 80gb music downloader... I think there are different kinds of downloadings and different ´rights or wrongs´.. Its not all the same.. A person who buys their favourite cds, goes to parties, etc, but downloads once in a while some music, I find that highly different than a person who downloads all the unreleased killarghs he can get his hand on just to show his friends, and never leaves his bedroom and doesnt support artists in any other way, or I think its different if a person buys his cd but cant buy at that specific moment because of money, and if a person just blindly downloads... or if a person has lots of money but chooses not to buys cd, as opposed to a person who just doesnt have money but is addicted to the genre :)

 

but I dont believe supporting the artists through buying cds is the only way we support them.. Organizing parties, making new people know the genre, going to parties, AND buying music are ways of supporting the artists

 

I feel its important to support the artists through buying cds too, yes.. I never said the inverse... I have my fav cds for example.. But unlike you, I dont think we have to ALWAYS buy the cds or if we cant buy the cds we shouldnt listen.. as I said, there are different cases, and its not just ´buying is right´...

 

hope you get me a bit clearer now

 

and anyways, im travelling now, gonna spend my new years in the mountains far away from civilization... Happy new year to you and everybody.. enjoy, and peace.. dont be a grumpy old long-bearded man, pedro, life is good :P:lol:

 

till next year everybody

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I liked your justification for the EUR 50, Sherlockalien. It would have been more honest and straightfoward if you had been upfront about it. Using your silly rationale then a CD costs more than that amount in your country. GDP per capita in the Europe is roughly 10x higher than Brazil.

 

But I am glad you included that remark and then the artificial explanation. It speaks volumes about you.

 

I may be grumpy. But you are dim.

 

Over and out.

 

 

Pedro

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I always buy music on CDs. Partly to support the artist but also because I like holding the product in my hands, looking at the artwork, getting an idea of the concept behind the music.

 

My main reason for buying CDs though is sound quality, MP3s sound flat in comparison, even MP3s recorded at a high bitrate.

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since I don't have a credit card (which would most likely be required to download the mp3s) and can not get one unless I get a job and have a secured income for me right now there are just 2 options: buying it at market price or pirating.

 

I choose to pirate.

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sorry but that's just incorrect.

B)

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Nick,

 

I am afraid you are the one who is mistaken.

 

MP3 is a lossy format carrying less data than CD (do a web search, you will find plenty of resources on that matter).

 

It is inherently lower quality than CD and unless you listen to music through poor equipment, you will usually notice the difference.

 

I do.

 

 

Pedro

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This is another debate entirely.

 

256 or 320k encoding - I don't think you can tell the difference... blind tests with audiophiles support that idea. Even with 192 it can be very tricky. That seems to be the going word on mp3s.

 

Personally I am always listening to the 320k encodings of the CDs I own because they sit on my HD and are easy to bring up rather than turning to the shelf to find out where that damn thing went...

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Nick,

 

I am afraid you are the one who is mistaken.

 

MP3 is a lossy format carrying less data than CD (do a web search, you will find plenty of resources on that matter).

 

It is inherently lower quality than CD and unless you listen to music through poor equipment, you will usually notice the difference.

 

I do.

Pedro

406133[/snapback]

 

This is another debate entirely.

 

256 or 320k encoding - I don't think you can tell the difference... blind tests with audiophiles support that idea. Even with 192 it can be very tricky. That seems to be the going word on mp3s.

 

 

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enough said... try a blind test some day with and maybe you see it for yourself and admit it.. [keep in mind that if the test is not blind it's no point taking it.. because of the so-called placebo effect ;) ]... like this one for example:[ http://sonic-energy.net/smf/index.php?topic=365.0 ] [you cant take the test anymore, unfortunately.. but i hope that results can prove my point..]

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This is another debate entirely.

 

256 or 320k encoding - I don't think you can tell the difference... blind tests with audiophiles support that idea. Even with 192 it can be very tricky. That seems to be the going word on mp3s.

 

Personally I am always listening to the 320k encodings of the CDs I own because they sit on my HD and are easy to bring up rather than turning to the shelf to find out where that damn thing went...

406135[/snapback]

 

The higher the encoding, obviously the less the loss, and the harder it is to notice the difference. Sometimes it can be hard to notice any difference at 320k. But I have participated in tests and found that even at 320k one can tell the difference.

 

I doubt most of the people in this forum are serious enough into audio quality to really care. My gut feeling is that for many 192k is good enough to listen at home and to put in the car. I don't do downloads, but I would not be surprised if most of it is at 192k or lower.

 

However, for me it does make a difference (especially in the sound systems that I have at home), but then again I am a hi-fi nut.

 

Incidently, there are better audio media formats than CD - such as SACD and DVD-Audio. Although these formats seem to be doomed they are pretty spectacular. I have a SACD player at home and while there is little in the way of electronic music, there is lots of classical music (which I love).

 

Everybody who listens to the SACDs in my house are amazed at how good they sound vis-a-vis regular CDs.

 

 

Pedro

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