Goa(WIP) Track Playing in Logic Feedback and Tips

[CosmicEquilibrium]

cosmium.sdf.org

 

Pretty simple but it's starting to sounding good, I will add more elements for sure, some opinions and tips?

[acid being]

I can't offer technical tips because you're beyond my level, so only opinions based on my weird tastes.

I like the lively dancing synth patterns you've got and they all fit well together. The basic track structure seems good to me too with elements dropping in and out at various points. For me I think your alien noise at the start loops maybe one or two too many times on its own before the other elements start to come in, unless you're going to add another sample or do something else with it but that's a minor point.

In my opinion you need to decide what flavor you want to add as you develop the track as it could go in a number of different directions. You could add variety by writing a couple of other synth patterns. Or keep the same ones and add more effects and vary the settings a lot more. I like the sort of frequency filter effect at 3:47.

The mood or theme of the track could change a lot depending on any other samples and instruments you want to add. You could go spacey, tribal, or harder, though the light synths give me a somewhat light, spacey feel at the moment. Personally, I'm a sucker for 303ish acid sounds as you might guess from my username!

Oh,  I personally prefer a slightly more complex bassline as well but you don't always get that in this genre and it makes it harder to fit the other elements around it.

Anyway it's great you're still making music. I enjoyed the track you shared on here previously as well. Keep at it.

 

[MikroMakro]

Overall feeling in this is very nice, you have a nice mysterious feel to it. Technically it is difficult to comment as technicality for Goa is a little different than psy trance. The kick sounds quite high pitched to me, it knocks well but could do with some more bottom end thump/sub. The mix is rather blurred together overall (other than your hats) There is something a little too similar happening on the sounds (maybe reverb choice is on to many lead sounds, try and separate them and give then definition and distinction) 03:46 watch out for harsh frequencies in the upper mids when that high res filter sweeps (also it pops/clicks there smooth the automation out) Enjoy it.

To add I am just listening on headphones and some tiny speakers on my office PC (Small Presonus Eris)

[CosmicEquilibrium]

Yep it need a lot more variations to get the track interesting and more elements, I'm trying now to improve the quality of sound experimenting with mixing and mastering, Then I will continuing changing the track, maybe I will add a proper TB-303

Like you can check in the audio section Goa(not in the video)  I have added a bass amp effect and it now sounds better, it starts to stand out, now I wanna do the same with the leads and other elements.

Thanks for your opinion.

Quote

try and separate them and give then definition and distinction)

That's is exactly what I want to do now, how can I do it adding some distortion effect? I changed the bass, like you can check in the audio section Goa(Track)  I have added a bass amp effect and it now sounds better, it starts to stand out, now I wanna do the same with the leads and other elements.

Thanks for your tips

[astralprojection]

Not sure what people are hearing but it sounds really awful on my end. Pretty much everything is bad. I'd recommend you go back, don't post anything for 2 years, and try again then. But society these days is that Everything is great, Everyone is accepted, There are 5437 genders etc. But maybe it's me! Maybe my speaker setup is bad and I can't tell good from bad. 

[CosmicEquilibrium]

"The awful truth." lol

Maybe you are right, that's why I'm making questions, I know it is not a proper track yet, it's more an exercise

[MikroMakro]

I would say the leads need the right EQ (maybe cut some lower mids on 1 or 2 lead sounds 270 - 600Hz , but they need to be the right frequencies, for each sound and the combination of the sounds) and different effects, but not overdone. Maybe a little delay, maybe distortion but it needs to be well chosen otherwise it can just become harsh and radically change the sounds. Effects like 2 different but complementary delays that occupy slightly different parts of the stereo image (as a pure example one ping pong and one stereo, one 1/4 note and one 1/8D - experiment and listen to what works, without over doing the delays feedback. Slight panning to opposite sides might help if you get stuck.

AP I think constructive criticism would be more appropriate, no one gets better by being fully insulted. We all start somewhere, my first tracks were not much good.

[astralprojection]

3 hours ago, CosmicEquilibrium said:

"The awful truth." lol

Maybe you are right, that's why I'm making questions, I know it is not a proper track yet, it's more an exercise

yup i realise that. so just as i encouraged you to do, go back, and keep experimenting. Music making takes decades if one is learning from scratch.

@MikroMakroconstructive criticism is great when there is a good foundation, or at least some redeeming qualites. Yes, ones first tracks are usually horrible, best to keep them off the internet or maybe send to some friends at the most. 

If my opinion rubs people the wrong way that is of course no problem, Im sure theres many here who dont agree with me at all.

[acid being]

21 minutes ago, astralprojection said:

Yes, ones first tracks are usually horrible, best to keep them off the internet or maybe send to some friends at the most.

I don't agree because goa / psytrance is a musical niche and there are some very talented and knowledgeable people on this site that understand it. Sending to a friend that only likes rock and pop isn't going to help anyone learn (That's why I put my very early stuff on here as well). Many of them wouldn't even like Dimension 5 or Posford's stuff!

For what it's worth, I don't think the track sounds horrible at all. It just sounds unfinished.

[HolyLight]

10 hours ago, acid being said:

I don't agree because goa / psytrance is a musical niche and there are some very talented and knowledgeable people on this site that understand it. Sending to a friend that only likes rock and pop isn't going to help anyone learn (That's why I put my very early stuff on here as well). Many of them wouldn't even like Dimension 5 or Posford's stuff!

For what it's worth, I don't think the track sounds horrible at all. It just sounds unfinished.

Agree, and @CosmicEquilibrium just keep on trying and learning, don't let negative comments online put you down. Use it as a motivation to improve with every track. Overall I try to see comments as some kind of Yin and Yang/polarity effect, balancing each other out. Some will be overly kind, others brutally honest. Others neutral, and an infinite scale of in-between shades. I mean people complain even when the veterans make music, and those artists know their trade. So with that in mind, you can never please everybody. Those artists are probably quite used to that by now though, altough I'm sure they're not totally immune to criticism. Some might even have a "slight" hubris and be extra stingy about criticism.  

The problem in general with Goa as @acid being pointed out, is that it's not a very common genre that many people might listen to that one knows, unless one is a total Goa head and only hangs out with Goa Trance people. So yeah this forum is your best bet for that I think, Facebook might be the totality of negativity in comparison, unless you find a really nice group there. Overall the activity and reactions/feedback to music people there seems quite low. Maybe due to how many of those kind of posts there are there, so people might've become a little numb to the massive amounts of Soundcloud links.

And also due to how few people there is that actually make Goa these days (in comparison to other genres atleast), it is probably a more difficult genre to learn, for example there are not many of the current Goa trance artists who make tutorials on youtube or share their production insights online either. In comparison there sure is a lot more Psytrance tutorials, and yeah Techno too. You can of course apply a lot of the techniques from those genres to Goa Trance, however I find that the harmonies and overall aura of the Goa Trance genre is quite distinct. It has a lot of traits that it has developed over the years, with many peculiarities. The Nitzho influences with its particular Kick Drum styles and more victorious modes, the different eastern scales,(Egyptian inspired/Indian/Phrygian(Greek) Anatolian?(Mindsphere) etc the different varieties of Goa from different countries/cities/eras and what not. 

From all the videos I've seen on youtube the only one that actually has a Kick Drum that sounds as it should is Hallucinogen's in the studio video. Most other masterclass/tutorial oriented videos have a more Psytrance sounding Kick Drum. Which can be a stylistic thing of course if you're into that. I would LOVE if some of the other Goa Trance veterans from the old school era would show some tricks or breakdowns on how they made their old classics. Dimension-5 in particular, and yeah Ra! 

Goa Trance is like a good cup of tea, there are many nice blends out there.  😁🍵

 

[HolyLight]

Slightly Off and yet On-topic a perfect Goa Acid machine released today in a pretty new color scheme:

 

[MikroMakro]

I have mixed feelings about using kick samples in psy trance production as they can cause as many problems as they solve (pitch vs aligning phase of bass) compared to a kick synth like Bazzism/Kick2. But for Goa this is arguably a good idea, a kick sample will take away some pain making the kick although they are actually quite easy, at least a basic serviceable Goa type kick.

If I get a little time I post a couple up on here in the next few days.

[CosmicEquilibrium]

You have an option from Roland the real creator of the classic https://www.roland.com/global/products/tb-03/ and more https://www.roland.com/global/promos/roland_boutique/ they have even releasing vst versions, don't waste all you money :|, about my track the bassline it's getting more full on then Goa I have that perception, another thing some people point out about releasing in the internet non finished work is that can cause bad image, but I'm just a hobbyist, I'm learning a want some opinions to improve and yes some people even talk bad about epic music and epic artists, I can buy some serum and get some template and see some YouTube videos, but I want to learn in my way to sound more creative and original with my own style.

[MikroMakro]

Good for you ! It is also good to get feedback if you are unsure and inexperienced as a producer. It is also worth understanding what level the best music in the genre sits at as you can gauge your own current sonic abilities. It is one thing to be creative and original and another to achieve a good sonic benchmark in tandem with that creativity, which can appear intimidating at first. The technicalities remain intimidating for all, because the music, especially psy trance, is at an extremely high level of audio engineering. It has become one of the most difficult genres of music to produce well.

Few succeed and even fewer get signed by a big label and pursue it as a career.

I am no technical slouch and still it remains a challenge to do it well. Luckily for me I have run out of ideas for now. 🤣 So I can relax and forget about it for a while that is why I am happy to be on here a bit and chat. 

Here is a link that will last 7 days of 3 Goa Trance style kicks

https://we.tl/t-x87a1pFIQ4

 

[CosmicEquilibrium]

As suggested I have changed the kick, the delay and a few more things to try make it sound better, if someone is interested to check it, I have uploaded the new version to the Goa(that now sounds progressive with alien sounds) track in the audio section in my site, thank you all for your opinion. If there are more suggestions just say it

[MikroMakro]

It's better already, for myself anyway, kick has weight to it. Sounds like a different bass line as well. Making music is a long ride, enjoy it.

I am checking the media player under Audio Goa, I presume that is the track.

[CosmicEquilibrium]

Thanks, I checked your kicks and they sounds good, yes I’m gathering tips here an there to see if the quality of my sound gets into shape, now I need to discover how to add more definition to the leads with some logic stock fx.

[MikroMakro]

I always found this track to be quite archetypal for the Goa Trance sound. It ticks all the boxes and could be a useful reference point for the old days. It is not constrained by automating every last detail like Psy Trance is, which is fine I like that too, but it's allowed to be a little more free. It's nice and warm, borderline muddy actually and has not been EQ'd into submission for loudness alone (none of the lower mids have been sucked out and probably few High pass filters, if any) and the leads and delays are a little free sounding, dancing around a bit.

By not draining the lower mids out it balances any slightly harsher filter sweep moments and balances out. Though on this particular track the upper mids are not pushed forward anyway. It is a very pleasant listen, soft on the ears and there is surely a time and place for that.

 

 

[CosmicEquilibrium]

It sounds proper, without many elements, but sounds great with those arps and some music theory, now I have a question do you add compression in every element or only kick, bass and lead and in master channel? I updated my track again in my site now sounds more progressive raised the delay and reverb and compressed every elements it sounds better or worse? I'm asking about the sound quality not the arrangement that needs much work I know, The snare is too levelled up I noted that and about the overall sound quality? 

[MikroMakro]

Ok let's go there others can follow and maybe learn something.

With compression you need a goal. You also have to know what a compressor can do and what it can resolve.

In short I do not personally use a compressor on every channel and I do not use one on the master bus either.

I use a compressor when I hear there is a need to make a dynamic adjustment. So one potential use if I have a sound that is being filtered and it sound like it is escaping the mix a little and becoming to loud in some section. I will play over that section, then set the compressor up to reduce the peaks by something like 3-4dB this will hold that section in place. Sometimes you may need to automate a fader of course as part of routine mixing.

Compression can perform multiple tasks, it can keep levels in check, it can change a sound character a little by making it more punchy (when set up extremely cautiously) it can smooth a sound out and it can change tone over time. It can also make the average volume of a sound more consistent .i.e increasing and lower level sections in an otherwise changing volume musical phrase or part.

So we don't add compressors without a reason. They are not a tool that instantly makes things sound better. They need setting up and tweaking for a pre determined goal.

I am not sure about psy trance producers at the top levels but my gut feeling is they probably do not use a master output compressor. Master bus compression can react to new sounds in a mix unpredictably, that is not something that relates to psy trance as typically it is a genre of control. It might sound free when you hear the track completed but the work that goes into it is about as controlled as modern music production gets. It is super produced and takes great care of details.

Arguably in Goa trance compression was used VERY sparingly, in part because a studio at the time may only have had 2-3 stereo compressors available, in some cases no compressors would have been used. This may account for some Goa/Psy Trance mixing differences. Goa is allowed to rip a little more..it is less refined at least in the old days, neo goa probably has taken a more modern approach and there are greater dynamic and tonal controls to keep things smoother.

If you listen to original 95-99 Goa trance you will hear a very wide range of mix styles as they were not pinned into position with 100's of dynamic and tonal processes, many automated, which comprise a modern psy trance mix. So you will hear harshness from time to time and splashy effects and a rather unrestrained tonal and dynamic movement.

I will leave you with an extremely important point. Always ensure you match the make up gain by ear once there is gain reduction so you can hear the effect of the compressor on the audio rather than just a drop in volume. Avoid automatic make up gain and do it by ear using the bypass button. Compressors can make things sound worse as well as better ! So whether you are using one for control (ultimately reducing the volume of a loud section) or compressing for punch, smoothness or character, always match up before and after volume otherwise you don't know if it is better or worse. Then once you know it is better you can set the make up gain to the correct mix balance level for the sound you are working on, if it is to be used to control. (and hold for example the peak crescendo of a lead sound at a specific optimal volume)

It can take a long time to understand compression fully, it's a long path of repetition and reinforcement of good habits to learn it well.

Some compressors, classic retro compressors with valves and specific electronic design have a secondary function which we will not consider now (some have a tonal characteristic which can change the tone whether they are compressing or not)

If you want to progress seriously you need to do a few things. Discern what good references are, have exceptionally good monitoring and acoustics and be willing make each track you make with a view to active learning. Otherwise you will making it close to impossible to improve in a reasonable time frame.

Accurately level match everything by ear that you are making reference comparisons with.

[CosmicEquilibrium]

On 7/18/2023 at 6:34 PM, MikroMakro said:

I would say the leads need the right EQ (maybe cut some lower mids on 1 or 2 lead sounds 270 - 600Hz , but they need to be the right frequencies, for each sound and the combination of the sounds) and different effects, but not overdone. Maybe a little delay, maybe distortion but it needs to be well chosen otherwise it can just become harsh and radically change the sounds. Effects like 2 different but complementary delays that occupy slightly different parts of the stereo image (as a pure example one ping pong and one stereo, one 1/4 note and one 1/8D - experiment and listen to what works, without over doing the delays feedback. Slight panning to opposite sides might help if you get stuck.

AP I think constructive criticism would be more appropriate, no one gets better by being fully insulted. We all start somewhere, my first tracks were not much good.

One delay like this?

both delay left and right are ping pong if you set it to l+r both and then you use the crossfade from 0 to 100 to make ping pong less or more, that is what I think, any way sound good enough

[MikroMakro]

Yes that is pretty much what I suggested, but it was quite literally from my head in a moments typing. Store that as a preset, listen carefully and consider if it is good or not compared with other types and variations of tempo synced delays. Some settings will work better with your track than others, that is your job as a producer to work out what is good an what is not. All the best with it !

Get the delays spatial effect in the stereo image nicely balanced against the definition and presence of the main lead. Adjust feedback, the send level, that is what mixing is all about. Get the balance right that sounds good to you. And listen to different leads from different tracks to try and judge if your sounds are approaching some similar qualities. That is a good way to learn. There will be variations but good track mixes will all have a good sonic balances that don't wander far from good taste.

[CosmicEquilibrium]

Alright thanks for the tips