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"ou mean that it doesn't matter, who am I and what do I do, because it all is a game? So, why can't I go around and kill people if I say that it's good in my game?" <-- it is what some people do, isnt it? I said PLAY WHATEVER GAME YOU WANT, but KNOW it is a game, with aims, characteristic movements, characteristic speech, etc. (you wont really reach your aim if you want to talk to me and you just start typing any keyboard key at random, for example)

 

"No. That is only benefit, not good" <--- Remember words create association... You create an association with the word benefit, while I was trying to say that it can also be called good...

 

"Good must be universal, defined beyond us. If everyone defines good severally, this word will lose any sense."<--- but isnt this exactly what happens? You say good is in the bible, but like I said, many people interpret the bible differently, because each one plays his own games, just like you play a different game than the Pope´s christianity, or than Bush´s christianity.. BUT good could be universal, but only if all people had the same aim, like for example, enlightenment, or whatever.

 

"From where I know what is good? I believe Bible - written by men over a long period of time, is "God's Word" " <---- here is where you should be carefull.. Did you ever read the Gnostic Chapels? They were in the bible originaly, and show a different side of Jesus Christ. What about the parts that were added purelly for the POWER game (you know people in the past and even today use the religion only for prestige and power, right?). Do you know which parts were changed? How can you believe blindly in something that was adulterated? Im not saying you should ignore it, but I believe you should read, but knowing it was changed over times, so you have to interpret symbolically, know what it means, find for yourself what to understand, and always have in mind that is your interpretation..

 

The cause of all the fights and conflicts in the world is due to the inability of people to realize they play games, and some games arent compatible, and believing that their Reality Model is the right and true one..

 

"If it is only a model or not, I do not know and you either" <--- of course I know, and you should too.. It IS a model, this is not up to discussion.. You live in the subjective world, you are a person, you are not an impersonal unbiased matter living in the physics world, therefore any thing you think or have an opinion of from the world is just a model, an interpretation..

 

So like I said, the problem is thinking that you´ve got the answer.. This is why people are so closed minded and create so much conflict.. If people would just accept that each person´s model is just as truthful (which doesnt mean you should follow everyone´s models), the world would be a different place..

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Ok.

I really don't understand why do you call our life a game. You can also say that our life isn't real and is only a dream and I won't be able to proof that you are wrong. But, what gives it to you? Does it make your life more truthful? Or something else. Tell me, please.

 

I see our discussion is going to nowhere. I can't believe you really don't know what am I talking what good is. And that you can't distinguish good from pleasure, happiness from success etc.

 

>So like I said, the problem is thinking that you´ve got the answer..

>This is why people are so closed minded and create so much conflict..

>If people would just accept that each person´s model is just as truthful

>(which doesnt mean you should follow everyone´s models),

>the world would be a different place..

 

I won't agree. I believe that Jesus Is God's Full & Final Revelation.

I tolerate what others believe in, but this doesn't mean that I accept it. Why do you think such attitude can make any conflict?

And I want to ask you about this changes in Bible content. What is "different side of Jesus Christ"?

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ok dude, let me try and explain... when I say we play games, I talk about psychology. How you work, how your mind works, understand? I dont mean it to say it in a bad way, "its just a game", but in comparison way that shows you how you always have aims, certain movements, languages, etc..

 

"I can't believe you really don't know what am I talking what good is"<-- the thing is that I do understand what YOUR good is, but you dont seem to get it that it is YOUR good, and everyone has his own good (even people who follow jesus christ, for example, hence the fight between fundamentalist, orthodox, protestants, etc).

 

"Why do you think such attitude can make any conflict?"<--- well when a person SINCERELY believes that smoking weed is a SIN, while another´s SINCERE religiousness is aided by weed, what do you think this will cause?!

 

"And I want to ask you about this changes in Bible content. What is "different side of Jesus Christ"? " I have made a bible (and comparative religion) study some time ago, so I was resuming some of the things.. The bible was changed over and over several times.. One of the examples was the Gnostic Gospels, which were omitted from the bible. They show a different side of christ because there are quotes like: "I came to bring fire down to earth.... " or things like: " He who does not fight against his family does not belong to my school".... etc etc.. Which does not mean that jesus was bad, but that he was an enlightened person who realized that people´s opinions (like our family´s) are completely degenerated, even though we think we are doing ´good´, and that we must fight against our conditioned mechanic self. I checked with some priest about why long ago they ommited the Gnostic Gospels, and basically it was an arbitrary decision: "Oh we dont like it, so it´s not going to be considered official"

 

So be more critical about things.. When I say that we dont have the answer, it is because we dont realize how conditioned we are.. And before we accept the fact that we are conditioned (even in our ´sincere´beliefs), we dont have a chance of waking up.

 

So for example, in a parallel universe, there is a guy called Wojtek who is sleeping, while he thinks he is awake (while another sherlockalien is sleeping but he knows he is sleeping).. So how can sherlockalien say it to Wojtek? He cant say any arguments, because unless it comes from Wojtek himself, the real ´struggle´ wont begin.. So in this parallel universe, sherlockalien sees that to wake up, you need to fight hard.. You need to accept that you learn by imitation, by watching tv, by ´eating´ all the morals and teachings you receive. You need to be aware of your body, be in control of your respiration, eliminate muscular tensions, etc etc etc...

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>let me try and explain...

I don't have doubt that we have aims, certain movements, languages, etc.. and we are conditioned. There is no fight about it.

But I also believe in what Jesus has said: "For this was I born, and for this came I into the world; that I should give testimony to the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice".

 

Are you sure you know what my good is? If you knew it, you wouldn't call it MY good.

 

>well when a person SINCERELY believes that smoking weed is a SIN,

>while another´s SINCERE religiousness is aided by weed,

>what do you think this will cause?!

 

What? I dunno.

 

And this omitted part isn't omitted at all:

"I have come to set the earth on fire, and how I wish it were already blazing! There is a baptism with which I must be baptized, and how great is my anguish until it is accomplished! Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division. From now on a household of five will be divided, three against two and two against three; a father will be divided against his son and a son against his father, a mother against her daughter and a daughter against her mother, a mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law." (Luke 12, 49-53)

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I´ve used the sentence off the top of my head, so maybe I confused it, but still, check what Im saying, the gnostic gospels, which were indeed not included...

 

"What? I dunno. " <--- It came out a little weird, my example, but the answer was: Conflict

 

Now you tell that I dont get what you say is good... so tell me then, what is good? I am telling you that good IS subjective.. Do animals think of good, does physics think of good? Nope... Humans only... When you say Good and Evil, it is your division.. So give me an example of what is good.. Now undoubtedly whatever you say there will for sure be at least one person in the world that will consider what you say as bad, instead of good, which means it is not universal, but subjective..

 

"But I also believe in what Jesus has said" Ok first of all you believe in what you READ about jesus saying.. big difference here.. Like I said, it is not the same as it originally intended. Also, you know that there are numerous intonations, and ways of saying, with facial expressions, etc, that make equal words contain a totally different meaning.. So what you have of jesus is really very little... Now like I said, I see jesus as an enlightened person, who described his thoughts after a ´universal´ experience he had.... This experience showed him to fight against conditioning... and I see the ´fixing´ of religious morals as a sign of conditioning.. So Im suggesting to you to consider the fact that you are asleep (like me), and for you to start researching how most religions infact speak of the same thing.. Why get stuck in christianity? Buddhism´s essence came from the same experience as Jesus Christ´s.. But like christianity, it became divided in many different ways, unlike what was intended... The same for the muslims, or for the jews, or for the secret societies and mystics, etc...

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>...but the answer was: Conflict

What kind of conflict will it cause? Scuffle or discussion?

 

>...good, which means it is not universal, but subjective

And we are at start point :)

Calling good - bad and bad - good is always very dangerous and leads to spiritual death. And it is great temptetion to take God's place to decide what is good and what is bad.

 

"Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the animals that the LORD God had made. The serpent asked the woman, "Did God really tell you not to eat from any of the trees in the garden?" The woman answered the serpent: "We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden; it is only about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, 'You shall not eat it or even touch it, lest you die.'" But the serpent said to the woman: "You certainly will not die! No, God knows well that the moment you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God who know what is good and what is bad." The woman saw that the tree was good for food, pleasing to the eyes, and desirable for gaining wisdom. So she took some of its fruit and ate it; and she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized that they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made loincloths for themselves."(Genesis 3, 1-7)

 

>Ok first of all you believe in what you READ about jesus saying.. big difference here..

 

What's the difference. Gospels haven't been written by accidental people, but by these, which have known and experienced Good News, which has changed their life, so they wanted to share this experience with others. Why should I suspect that they have omitted something important or changed meaning of anything? Don't treat gospel as a book, but remember, the gospel, by etymology, is good news that God has reached down and saved those who put their trust in Jesus.

 

>So Im suggesting to you to consider the fact that you are asleep

 

There is even worse thing. I'm blind.

"Jesus said to him in reply, 'What do you want me to do for you?' The blind man replied to him, 'Master, I want to see.' "(Mark 10,51)

 

>Why get stuck in christianity?

Because there is no reason to get out of it and there are many to stay in.

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Because there is no reason to get out of it and there are many to stay in. :)"<--- like I said, please tell me then what is good?! And tell me why is it that only you've got what's good, and fundamentalist islam people dont, for example, or buddhist, or whoever?

 

"What kind of conflict will it cause? " <--- does it matter? All it matters is that it is the inverse of the so-preached 'universal love'....

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>I said that you should realize how all the other religions are

>just as valid, and their starting point is the same experience,

>of enlightenment, so you could learn from all of them...

 

I realize other religions are in some degree valid, but I can't say that Jesus was only a prophet or an enlightened guy. I also agree with you their starting point is the same experience and I can learn from them. You know, yesterday I saw in TV a Benedictine monk speaking about his experiences with ZEN.

 

>Dont you realize this is just a metaphor...

 

Does something opposite follow from what I've written?

 

>And tell me why is it that only you've got what's good, and

>fundamentalist islam people dont, for example, or buddhist, or whoever?

 

I'm sure that they also know what good is , but may be formulated in different way and it doesn't mean good can be mixed with bad.

 

>it matters is that it is the inverse of the so-preached 'universal love'....

 

The trick is to love even if I do not like.

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but I can't say that Jesus was only a prophet or an enlightened guy <--- I never said ONLY.. I believe enlightenment to be very great deal.

 

Does something opposite follow from what I've written? <--- No, I just making sure...

 

I'm sure that they also know what good is , but may be formulated in different way and it doesn't mean good can be mixed with bad. <--- Lets just leave it for now.. I know what you mean, but my point is that good and bad are in the head.. not that there isnt, but that for example, you can't really say if something 'physical', some 'act' is evil or good, because evil and good acts are in the intentions.. So for me, Jesus would just as enlightened if someone discovered that he killed a guy... If his intentions, his Sword of Reason did find it to be necessary, it's ok.. Just like in nature, I agree if you take down a big tree that took thousands of years to grow, if your Enlightened Self with the Sword of Reason decided it was right. But I will disagree with you for killing a simple mosquito if it was an 'unenlightened act'. It's sort of what you say, but in a diferent way

 

The trick is to love even if I do not like. <--- YESSS, we agree at last.. This is my whole point.. We've settled it =)

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>I believe enlightenment to be very great deal.

 

I believe being God himself is something different than 'great deal'.

 

>It's sort of what you say, but in a diferent way

 

Yes, and I also want to add that God has provided us with a 'tool', with which we can distinguish good from bad. It's named - conscience. But conscience is not automatic. We can form it well or not and it's not so easy to form it well. We also can always discuss if some particular 'act' is good or not as we are HOMO SAPIENS.

 

>YESSS, we agree at last.. This is my whole point.. We've settled it =)

 

OK. Let's finish this topic on that. Thanks for conversation.

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Why do people belive in God?

Why are they doing this?

What is the main purpose?

 

The answer is that every person who belives in God wants to come back to him after death. Return to you father.

That is why our life on this planet is just an stage in the holy way we follow.

We are all sinners - but with the help of praying, and following the Gods commandments we can crumble our sins.

As nothing dirty can be with God. He will reject you.

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"As nothing dirty can be with God. He will reject you."

 

"""""God""""" accepts everyone/everything. He/she/it forgives and understands everything, and his/her/its love is unbound for everything created in the universe and subsequent dimensions in it's entirety. God wanted it this way, and so it is.

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