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Guest towelie

"i do believe in God .. and if u dont and u in to psyche ! delic trance that means wot psy trance is p of shit .. thats really funny .. we dont believe and we have no souls but we loves psy ! trance .. any one knows wot mean that word ' psychedelic ' ? we r children of God .. hey who needs a reason to believe ? wot a bout a ticket ? a ticket to hell ?

ps . astral projection - ppl can fly

any one of u ever flyed ?"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ROFLMAO!!!!!! ???? stop takeing drugs

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"What da fuck is a true Christian anyway?"

 

Obviously, there is no such definition. But, if you meet true Christian you will know who it is. It doesn't matter if you are Catholic (as I am), Protestant or Orthodox. I think, you can even be out of any Church and be anonymous true Christian.

Regarding original sin, it is what you can notice when you sometimes do something what is wrong, you know that is wrong, you even may want not to do it, but you do.

 

And what is wrong with this psalm?

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"What is God?

 

YHVH - The One Who Is

 

It's very simple. " <--- it's not simple, and it is so not simple that there are numerous fights over it.. The one who is in what sense? Existing in space/time? The one is a person? Does he incorporate and create all there is, or only good? What is good, what is evil? Does he create in a moment in space/time, or all the moments of space/time? Does he go against the laws of science? Does he punish the sinners? Is he the Self in each of us?

 

etc etc etc I could go on forever.. Dont suppose it's simple.. Or rather, suppose it is simple, but realize at the same time it is complex

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Guest Indica Couchlock

"I think, you can even be out of any Church and be anonymous true Christian."

 

I can safely assume your the very liberal type from this statement. It's organized religion I'm railing against and its fundamentalist dogams. Your views about true Christians are is just one view among many and you'll probably be called a heretic back in the old days for expressing such views.

 

"Regarding original sin, it is what you can notice when you sometimes do something what is wrong, you know that is wrong, you even may want not to do it, but you do."

 

I'm sorry, I don't know what your talking about here in regards to its relation to original sin.

 

It's all subjective and that's the bottom line. No one holds monopoly over these beliefs and that fact that people try their damnest to enforce a monopolized viewpoint is the problem with organized religion.

 

Considering the psalm. Do you think it right that revenge served up with such brutality? Killing your enemy is one thing but dashing their babies on the rocks and being happy about it? What the hell did the babies do? Well we can all be rest assured that at least the babies will go to heaven right? (isn't that the accepted view?) Why don't we exterminate all babies to gaurantee their place in heaven?

 

I don't know why you don't see how cruel and heartless and unGodly, whatever that means, this psalm is.

 

Dogma and ideology are the enemies of mankind. Sadly, these are the foundations upon which organized religions have survived and existed throughout history and was the cause of unimaginable human suffering. Mind you, they are not strictly associated with religion, but can be under the guise of many things such as political ideas and institutions. Dogma and ideology are the viruses we must eradicate.

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I don't beleive in god.

 

I don't see why I would. There's never been anything remotely convincing that points to his exsistence.

 

When evidence accumulated that the earth is older than it says in the bible, that species have a common origin and were not created by a forseeing designer, that the bible is nothing more then a collection of nice mythology, people adjusted their definition of god.

 

If we adopt a concept of god that is in accordance with everything we see and perceive, it will be so general, that it has lost any meaning.

 

YHVH - the thing that is

 

Sure, Ill beleive in a thing that is. Very simple indeed, but with no meaning at all.

 

However, god still is man with a long white beard sitting on a cloud being all seeing and all mighty and all...

 

and he does not exsist.

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To sherlockalien:

 

"At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known."(1 Cor 13:12)

 

Yes, it is not so simple. I've exaggerated.

Not every question can be answered. But let's try.

>Existing in space/time?

Not in, but beyond as creator of space and time.

>The one is a person?

Not a person like you or me, of course, but there is personal relation between you and God (or only may be).

>Does he incorporate and create all there is, or only good?

The answers you can find in Genesis. Do you remeber AP's "Enlighted evolution"? :)

>What is good, what is evil?

I suppose that everyone know somehow what is good.

>Does he create in a moment in space/time, or all the moments of space/time?

When a new man is born, who, do you think, gives him life?

>Does he go against the laws of science?

He set up all laws.

>Does he punish the sinners?

This is the best one. (As I believe) He saved us from our sins by sending his own Son to the death on the cross.

>Is he the Self in each of us?

Yes, if you let Him be.

 

That's what I can tell you. Anyway, I'm not professional evangelist.

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To Indica Couchlock:

 

>I can safely assume your the very liberal type from this statement. It's organized religion I'm railing against and its fundamentalist dogams.

>Your views about true Christians are is just one view among many and you'll probably be called a heretic back in the old days for expressing such views.

There is no dogma describing true Christian. The statement I've borrowed from Karl Rahner SJ, who was one of the most respectable contemporary catholic theologians.

 

>"Regarding original sin, it is what you can notice when you sometimes do something what is wrong, you know that is wrong, you even may want not to do it, but you do."

>I'm sorry, I don't know what your talking about here in regards to its relation to original sin.

I'm just talking that original sin can be viewed in our inclination to sins.

 

>It's all subjective and that's the bottom line.

>No one holds monopoly over these beliefs and that fact that people try their damnest to enforce a monopolized viewpoint is the problem with organized religion.

Do you think that good and bad is subjective?

Am I the one who e_n_f_o_r_c_e you a monopolized viewpoint?

 

>Considering the psalm. Do you think it right that revenge served up with such brutality?

>Killing your enemy is one thing but dashing their babies on the rocks and being happy about it?

>What the hell did the babies do? Well we can all be rest assured that at least the babies will go to heaven right? (isn't that the accepted view?)

>Why don't we exterminate all babies to gaurantee their place in heaven?

>I don't know why you don't see how cruel and heartless and unGodly, whatever that means, this psalm is.

You know, the psalm have been written a long time ago. For us the low "eye for eye, tooth for tooth" is hard and cruel, but wasn't for Abraham's descendants.

They saw in Jahwe a warlike God leading them to fight. They believed that the God himself desired death of wifes and childrens of theirs enemies.

They could only gradualy understand God's mercy.

Finally Jesus brang complement of the Old Testament. He teached: "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well." and "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust. "

 

>Dogma and ideology are the enemies of mankind.

>Sadly, these are the foundations upon which organized religions have survived and existed throughout history and was the cause of unimaginable human suffering.

>Mind you, they are not strictly associated with religion, but can be under the guise of many things such as political ideas and institutions.

>Dogma and ideology are the viruses we must eradicate.

Sorry, but I think that you are little too dramatic.

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Guest Indica Couchlock

"Do you think that good and bad is subjective?"

 

this is a complicated question and I won't do the question enough justice if I reply in just a few sentences, so I'll refrain. But i do find the concept of moral authority from 'above' ridiculous. a sane person will not lose their core moral nature just because he loses his faith and no longer subscribes to a religious belief with its own version of a rigid set of ethics.

 

"Am I the one who e_n_f_o_r_c_e you a monopolized viewpoint?"

 

this isn't a personal conflict.

 

"Sorry, but I think that you are little too dramatic."

 

I disagree. care to explain why you think that's a little too dramatic? I think history is on my side.

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Guest Indica Couchlock

"When a new man is born, who, do you think, gives him life?"

 

Zoroaster. Or maybe Zeus. I hear there's a big power struggle between the two.

 

"This is the best one. (As I believe) He saved us from our sins by sending his own Son to the death on the cross."

 

so you don't think God punishes? do you think there is a hell? how much sinning did Jesus save us from? I would like to know so I don't go beyond the limit.

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>But i do find the concept of moral authority from 'above' ridiculous.

>a sane person will not lose their core moral nature just because he loses his faith and no longer

>subscribes to a religious belief with its own version of a rigid set of ethics.

 

I didn't say that. But from where comes our moral nature? It is only an imperative? Is there any difference between human and animal?

Why are we trying to do good against bad?

And if I left Church, I wouldn't lose my core moral nature, but it could be harder for me to keep right path.

 

>I disagree. care to explain why you think that's a little too dramatic? I think history is on my side.

 

Maybe I didn't understand you. About what dogma and ideology have you written that are enemies of mankind?

 

Would you mind if I won't comment your opinion about Zeus and Zoroaster?

 

>so you don't think God punishes? do you think there is a hell?

> how much sinning did Jesus save us from? I would like to know so I don't go beyond the limit.

 

I think about hell state only as a possibility given by God. It coluld be "empty".

And you should know that God is not bookkeeper.

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Guest Indica Couchlock

don't think everything I say was a direct response, I just go off sometimes :)

 

human sacrafice, all religious wars, witch hunt, spanish inquisition, soviet dictatorships, ethnic cleansing, all forms of genocide, ..... at the root is dogmatic belief and ideology.

 

"But from where comes our moral nature?"

 

what exactly is our moral nature? you probably have a good idea but I can't at the moment come to a definite conclusion. there are definite inclinations and I'm not even sure that our 'moral nature' isn't subject to change itself. but if there is a moral nature we can define and all agree upon, where does it come from? hell if I know.

 

"I think about hell state only as a possibility given by God"

 

hehe. I would really like to get some fundamentalists in here to debate you on that. believe me, it won't be pretty :)

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I suppose that everyone know somehow what is good. < ---- THAT is the whole deal...

 

Let me try to establish this to you guys.. Every person living has, first of all, different I´s.. But I wont even deal with these separate I´s... Let´s pretend we are only one person, always.. So this person establishes his own models as to what reality is like. Each one creates a MODEL, which must not be confused with REALITY itself, just like the MENU is not the MEAL. Guided by this model, each person plays his own games, like social games, or the game of driving a car, or the family game, etc.

 

So let me go against 2 main arguments: 1- There is a universal good and evil...

Good, is all that will help you get to your aim of the game you play. EVERYBODY plays for the sake of GOOD, (even if that good is a winning-by-losing masochist aim). If the person is a satanist, he does what he thinks is GOOD, (remember this is just a word) but calls it the word BAD (but is it really bad? No because it goes forward to his aim)...

 

So let´s give examples: A person who hurts physically/psychologically someone else and believes he is doing good, following God´s teachings (fundamental religious people for example), is he doing good or evil? What about people that sincerely think they are doing good by giving money to beggars, so instead of really solving the problem, he is only increasing the assistencialist industry (which is like giving a man a fish, instead of teaching him how to fish).. What about a man who drives a car, because he wants to go meet their family, but the pollution in his car is killing lots of animals/bacteria/plants, etc. is he doing good or evil?

 

The second concept I am going to go against is that the majority, or society should give the guidelines to what is good and evil. What about Einstein, who went against the majority.. Imagine if he followed everybody.. What about Giordano Bruno, who was burned to death? What about all the females fighting for their right to speek during middle ages, and the majority send them to burn? What about the majority that elected bush, hehehe?

 

Now Im not saying that this justifies anything, and because good and evil is subjective (obviously, as without subjectivity, humans, there is no such division) you can go around killing people.. It´s a matter of CONSCIOUSLY knowing which game you are playing, and THEN playing the game.. So if your game is the social game, the working game, then DO IT, but KNOW it is a game... (much more to write on this... but that´s ok for now)

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So like I said, when you say that God is creating spacetime, etc etc etc, it is your MODEL of how things work.. It is your INTERPRETATION of all the stimulus you have received in your life.. If you were born in an african tribe, or in the middle of the amazon forest, you would have been a different person, with a different MODEL for how things work...

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I was a man who was searching for something in this life.

I had many questions the answers on which i hardly could find.

But even i found an answer on my question, i was not satisfied with it for a long period of time. Everything was changing, and it depended upon the new information i received for surrounding world.

 

My belives were absouletly not constant. I could not get anything for myself from the fact that i managed to get some answers.

One day i talked to a girl. She is a marmon. And she said that God may give you all answers. But you should not understand them by your mind, you should understend it with the help of your heart.

The thing she told me about the faith, about the faith in God, is that you just take something on faith. You just take it and that is it. You belive in things which were told by God with the help of prophets. Who wote the Bible and a lot of sacerd papers about who to live on this planet.

To be continued........

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...........Are you agreed with me that there is an ORDER in this universe.

We, people, discover so many things, we try to understan how nature works. We give reasenable explanations of this or that. We are the creaters who searching an order in things in order to explain their nature.

 

And that girl told me that there is an order in human life.

Lets say God is the power who created us and everything that surrunds us.

He gave as live - and told us how to live effective.

 

I belive in fact that human has a soul - this soul is something that was given by God. After death the sould flys away and returns to the source - to God.

But God is PURE. Nothing dirty can stand against his light. That is why we must be off sin in order to come to HIM.

Off sin - follow the God's commandment.

Save your soul.

To be continued...................

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I would like to add, that analyzing things concerning God and our life isn't in opposition to faith. It's good direction and I think that is not necessary to forget about it. You just can't stop yourself on considerations, but when you hear someday God's voice, just don't harden your hearts...

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I dont know if you got what I mean.. I am not disagreeing with you, any more than I disagree with everybody else, GORE and Wojtek.. But you guys seem to have understood it one way, while it is EQUALLY TRUTHFULL to understand it in a totally different way, for example believing solely in science, or believing God is a 3 headed serpent who lives in the sewers.

 

"But you should not understand them by your mind, you should understend it with the help of your heart. " <--- do you see, for example, how this is a way of picturing something which is just a metaphor? Of course you shouldnt literaly listen with your heart, as it is just a muscle... So you must ALWAYS look deep into all metaphors, and try to see what they mean.. Does it mean the unconscious? Does it mean the imagination? Does it mean reason? etc...

 

"Off sin - follow the God's commandment" <-- This is a long discussion about sin.. What is a sin? If you read my post a few posts ago, you will see the examples of how the same act can be considered EVIL, and GOOD. It is all on the eye of the beholder.. YOU, with YOUR SUBJECTIVITY and YOUR MODEL consider what is a sin and what is not....

 

"Lets say God is the power who created us and everything that surrunds us" <--- again, that is a model, words you are playing with.. I can say science created all... and it´s another just as truthfull model..

 

All you need is just to start to belive <--- now for my opinion about it: NO, you must not just start believing. Believing is the main problem here. People believe too much, in their authorities (whether it is political, ideological or religious authorities).. Everybody must see for themselves, the answer is in each of us.. Dont believe the words of the bible.. It was changed over and over, during the middle ages for example, when many parts were left out and forgotten, while others were added without the same purpouse as initially intended.. Read the bible, but take it´s meaning for YOU.... not as it is the only meaning, but it´s subjective meaning. BUT always have a skeptic side on hand, so you dont get lost..

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sherlockalien I've lost myself in what you are saying. You mean that it doesn't matter, who am I and what do I do, because it all is a game? So, why can't I go around and kill people if I say that it's good in my game?

 

>Good, is all that will help you get to your aim of the game you play.

No. That is only benefit, not good.

You've said people think that good is what they want to be good and that is counterargument against that there is a universal good and bad. Like you, I also think majority can't decide what is good.

 

Good must be universal, defined beyond us. If everyone defines good severally, this word will lose any sense.

 

From where I know what is good? I believe Bible - written by men over a long period of time, is "God's Word" and there I can find what is truth. If it is only a model or not, I do not know and you either. But the model isn't here the most important thing.

How do you live, what are your relations with other people - that is fundamental. And I see God influences on my life to help me in such things. I won't bet if believing solely in science or in god from sewers could do the same.

 

>Everybody must see for themselves, the answer is in each of us..

No Man Is an Island

 

>Dont believe the words of the bible.. It was changed over and over,

>during the middle ages for example,

>when many parts were left out and forgotten, while others were added

>without the same purpouse as initially intended..

What exactly was changed? What important parts were left out?

 

>Read the bible, but take it´s meaning for YOU

That's right! That's for what we have our minds.

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I believe in the entity that made creation and that is liquid energy of atoms, molecules and electrons,not to mention LEPTONS ! ....Okay, where are they ? We are all part of grand experiment that was made by some kind of God, but our god, that made us is not some energy entity but someone like us...human or an animal, choose...God made our makers, that's the fact but we are made out of the same flesh...

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