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men cruaulty, thats all. the way it has been done, that was the goal of this movie, to show what wev done to them, to make us feel guilty again, its all for making us feel guilty

Boy, what a cynic you are. Believe me I am no Pollyanna (in fact I am quite cynical about those seeking power, control, and wealth) but I am convinced that Gibson's intent with this film was to try and make the viewer feel they ARE Tiger Paw, and share in his awakening of "The Power Of My Jungle" that lived within himself. The other aspects of the story and setting were just a framework that he could use to accomplish this. The intent had nothing to do with some histrionic attempt to induce some cultural guilt. You are so damn French. That sort of motive would be very unlike Gibson. And in general I dislike Gibson... I despised his "Passion of the Christ" film.... one long sadomasochistic gore-triip. hate almost all his other movies as actor or director. But in Apocalypto I think his motives were almost entirely to instigate the whole feeling of "the heroe's unification with the world" sensation in the heart and mind of the viewer... he could have set such a story in any number of times and places, but chose this because it was SO intensely strange and otherworldly and this increased its hypnitic power over the viewer.


So, murphythe cat: DID YOU SEE THIS MOVIE??? Not trailers, not read reviews, but sit and view the film yourself from start to end?

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what you mean you've never had that? I thought everyone who's tried acid/ mushies had that. I remember reading Doors of Perception, tripping a few days later and thinkin"man, that's totally true!!", then I watched Matrix and thought that was true, then I read some stuff on shamanism and saw that as true, etc etc...

A quick check shows that kilgoretrout (cool name BTW!) is far from the first to recognize Campbell as a source in the movie's story. Even less surprising when one knows that Campbell was a major inspiration to Lucas when making Star Wars.
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A quick check shows that kilgoretrout (cool name BTW!) is far from the first to recognize Campbell as a source in the movie's story. Even less surprising when one knows that Campbell was a major inspiration to Lucas when making Star Wars.


oh but of course, I'm not saying that he's wrong or anything (after all I've once had a vision of travelling to the center of the Universe while tripping, it doesn't mean that the center of the Universe doesn't exist ;)) I'm just saying that one should be careful of drawing such conclusions while under the influence :)

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A quick check shows that kilgoretrout (cool name BTW!) is far from the first to recognize Campbell as a source in the movie's story. Even less surprising when one knows that Campbell was a major inspiration to Lucas when making Star Wars.

Thanks for mentioning the Campbell/Apocalypto connection... you are right... just google [apocalypto "joseph campbell"]. Though most are just one-word references in passing; none delve even as much as a sentance or half a sentance on the topic, let alone actually attempt to explain HOW the film's story is connected to Campbells Canonical Hero ideas as I have tried to.


If you know of links to any more than single word references to "Campbell" in any article on Apocalypto PLEASE I BEG you post them, I would be VERY VERY fascinated and eager to read them. Thanks!


Actually here is one that is at least a full sentance:



(Campbell reference is in a readers comment at the end)


And I did not plaguerize the concept of this connection if that is your point. Actually I was very familiar with Campbell (and the Star Wars connection) for quite some time, having watched Bill Moyers great great great multimedia set of interviews with Campbell when they first aired on PBS ages ago. This film affected me like no other... I could think about nothing else for days. Trying to figure out why... the connection to Campbell's Hero's Journey template sprung to mind suddenly one day and I knew that was the answer.


Sorry to go so far out on a limb off-topic; but......


RE: name - "Kilgore Trout" is of course the bizzare but utterly brilliant Science Fiction author who keeps popping up in one way after another in many of the novels and stories of the late (...and so it goes...) Kurt Vonnegut Jr. (whom I believe may well have been a reincarnation of Samuel Clemes aka Mark Twain). Many of Trout's ideas focus on alternate ideas and explanations about What Exactly Is *REALLY* Going On Here / where did we come from / what are we REALLY, etc.


His swan song is in the outstanding, now considered classic of Americal literature, Breakfast of Champions, which Vonnegut intended as his sort of farwell to the character... alas he could not get rid of him and he did appear again.


He is played in the incredibly overlooked (and highly over criticised) film of the book with a phenomenal cast starring:


Bruce Willis ... Dwayne Hoover (apart from Sixth Sense the best acting job he ever did)

Albert Finney ... Kilgore Trout (BRILLIANT performance... very nuanced and touching)

Nick Nolte ... Harry Le Sabre (some of the most hilarious moments I ever saw in a film from him here)

Barbara Hershey ... Celia Hoover

Lukas Haas ... George 'Bunny' Hoover (creates a wonderful vibe)

Omar Epps ... Wayne Hoobler (also one of the funniest things I have ever seen)

Vicki Lewis ... Grace Le Sabre (perfect in this)

Buck Henry ... Fred T. Barry (also fits in flawlessly)

Jake Johannsen ... Bill Bailey

Will Patton ... Moe the Truck Driver

Owen Wilson ... Monte Rapid


It is one of my favorite movies... most of the severe dislike in some reviews come from people who worship the book and are upset the film is not exactly like it. Or they just did not "get it". But there are also a pretty good number of complete opposite reviews that really really praise and love the film, as I do... it is absolutely hilarious, wise, knowing, compassionate, touching, and otherworldly. Is is quite a trip (especially if you are mentally altered in any way). Vonnegut, who has a cameo in the film as the Director of a live TV spot by Dwayne Hoover gone disasterously wrong featuring an escalatingly unhinged Willis. Vonnegut has said he likes the film alot, but it is so different from his book that he has to consider it a totally different work that was inspired by his book. Very wise outlook.


Filled with hints and innuendoes to other things.


Since this is a board about music, I will mention that the film features a wonderful sountrack, perfectly used, consisting mostly of cuts from 1950s & 196s Exotica genre bands, like Martin Denny, Les Baxter, many others. Plus fill-in and other music by new age star Mark Isham. One recurring theme in a wide variety of styles is the song "Stranger In Paradise", which is from the broadway musical "Kismet", but whose main melody is from the opera "Prince Igor" by Borodin, by the way. Borodin claimed that this melody ("Polovetsian Dances") was an ancient, mystical pagan melody from Russian pre-history, and it certainly does have a strangely beguiling and hypnotic effect on the mind... "Stranger In Paradise" is one of the most recorded songs in history, with a rendition count that must be approaching 50 or more. See a little more about the song at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stranger_In_Paradise. As an example of the kind of visual cross-referencing for "those in the know" the director does is that at one point Trout goes into a dilapidated former theatre now a porn store called in a prominent shot of the marquee in HUGE neon lettering "KISMET", which I guess was the last show to be put up in the building's former life before it shut down... and on another part of the marquee can be seen in lettering now all akimbo: "st anger in aradise"


A detailed analysis of the use of "Stranger In Paradise" in the film by me can be seen at:


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Lots of information there, my friend. I also saw the PBS interview with Campbell, and was changed by it. Brilliant man. And I've read almost all of Vonnegut's books, starting with Galapagos which remains my favorite, which is why I liked your name. But I haven't seen the Breakfast of Champions movie, so I'm putting it at the top of my list. I appreciate the tip. :)

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