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Lightforce

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    The Psychedelic Trance, in its entirety

    in General Psytrance

    Posted · Edited by Lightforce

    Ok, after some modifications, here's the result :

    278981PsychedelicTrancetimeline.jpg

    But I still have some doubts about the birth of the New School Goa Trance around 2003 rather than 2004.

    Yeah I agree that newschool started in 2003 with Ethereal and Ypsilon 5.


    First Ypsilon 5 release was in 2004.

    And about Ethereal :

    Ethereal album must stay in Old School => The first versions of tracks released on "Anima Mundi" already date back to 1999 and including an EP was available in 1999 as DAM CD distributed by MP3.com. The album has tooked a long time to be finalized and was finally released in 2003.


    => http://unreleasedgoa.blogspot.fr/2013/11/ethereal_7220.html

    The Psychedelic Trance, in its entirety

    in General Psytrance

    Posted · Edited by Lightforce

    For example the 80% of Psytrance has Full On elements in it. Is the 80% of Psytrance experimental?

    No, these 80% are not experimental because if they represent 80%, in this case this can be considered as part of the sub-style concerned.

     

    Example: admit that a minority of "Forest" artists combine their productions with IDM. If they remain a small minority, their production will be considered as Experimental. However, if the fact to add IDM becomes, not necessarily a majority, but at least more or less "current" among the "Forest" productions, in this case we will add this characteristic in the definition of "Forest" and all productions that are concerned by this blend then will pass in the "Forest" category and anymore be displayed as "Forest/IDM" but just "Forest" as it is precised in the "Forest" definition.

     

    Example of the example (inceptionxamples :lol: ) : given the number of genres and styles which consists Psychedelic Trance, when you tell someone that you listen to it, you tell him "I listen to Psychedelic Trance" and not "Me ? Uh... I listen to Psychedelicacidhousenewbeatebmhardtranceacidtrancetechno :D ".

    The Psychedelic Trance, in its entirety

    in General Psytrance

    Posted · Edited by Lightforce

    I agree with Celaripo here. Experimental = music that defies genre and makes up its own rules.

     

    Ju Ju Space Jazz, Shaolin Wooden Men, Ubar Tmar, Rip Van Hippy, Sunkings = Experimental.

     

    MWNN, (early) Juno Reactor, Cydonia, Koxbox, TIP = Goa.

     

    All the Goa artists I named created their own sound, but they stay within the borders of Trance/Techno/Acid. The Experimental artists don't conform to those borders at all.

     

    So, by this logic, I'll take an example : "Shaolin Wooden Men - Supermindway" consists of Experimental Music, Industrial Music and Abstract Music. But it doesn't contains Psytrance or Goa Trance. Anyway, it seems to have its place in the Experimental category. Now, "Cydonia - In Fear Of A Red Planet" is composed of Goa Trance and Industrial Music. But it has no place in this category because it contains Goa Trance. So in this case "Ubar Tmar - Ubarpedia" has no place in Experimental because it is composed of Psytrance and Goa Trance, so it should be placed either in the category Goa Trance, or in one of the Psytrance sub-styles. Here is the whole problem of this reasoning. Now, do you understand where I'm going with this ? ;)

     

    in my opinion the Experimental section should include the artists Earwall mentioned - Ubar tmar, Shaolin wooden men...

    again by your term ""Uncategorized" you mean the albums that are hybrids of several genres, in that case why mention them at all? Why needing a category for it? So this MWNN album is a crossover between goa trance and club trance, allright then no need to include it in your PDF simple as that :)

     

    I would just write a conclusion at the end of your PDF saying something like: many albums include ingredients of several different genres, therefore they can't fit 100% in a single category, these albums are usually crossover between genres, examples MWNN or xxxxxxx

    don't need to make it like an official genre, but mention it as a conclusion

     

    The idea is not bad at all but as it's already precised in the definition of Experimental (about blends of multiple genres), make one or more page for that tantamount to creating a new category, so much leave as is.

    In fact, we have both the same vision and understanding of what the experimental and non-classified blends are. The only difference is that I put them together for both presented albums as for their definition ;)

     

    Finally, I can sum up like this : in the PDF, the Experimental category is an "Out of the box" category.

     

    The rest of your Pdf is great. Just my 2 cents :)

    Thanks, you're welcome ^_^

    The Psychedelic Trance, in its entirety

    in General Psytrance

    Posted

    Ozric Tentacles belongs because of the influence the band had on Goa Trance. I would have picked Strangeitude over Arborescence, though; it's both earlier and a better known Goa influence.

     

    Goa always had tracks that crossed over into mainstream Trance, MWNN in particular being supported by Oakenfold. I don't think of that as Experimental, it's rather that the line between Goa and Melodic or Club Trance could be blurred sometimes. If we count all artists who incorporate other scenes and styles of music then technically all Oldschool Goa is Experimental or Uncategorized since it's always a mix of different musical influences. Better to say that Goa could incorporate elements of Melodic Trance (or Industrial, Hard Trance, ect.)

     

    (This works the other way around, too. For instance Section X is a Hard Trance/Techno act that was played a lot by Goa Trance DJs)

     

    Ok, but once again we go back to the same point : in this case what allows you to differentiate incontestably and surely some albums between Experimental and Goa Trance ?

    The Psychedelic Trance, in its entirety

    in General Psytrance

    Posted

    I think your definition of the term Experimental is very confusing

    it looks like you use this word to mean Hybrid

     

    For me Experimental usually refers to some weird music but never to something clubby like Man with no name

    Cydonia just sounds like any typical goa trance with a dark approach

    It is very strange to say Cydonia is Experimental or in that case Oforia also fits in this same Experimental category?

     

    For me this is Experimental https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ARniuNgx3A

    Ubartmar.com ‎– Macrometasomakosmos http://www.discogs.com/Ubartmarcom-Macrometasomakosmos/release/238294

     

    I understand your point of view, but if I create 2 categories, for example "Experimental" and "Uncategorized", what are the elements that allows you to differentiate them ? I mean, you'll always have albums where you'll not never know where to place them too much because it will rely more on subjective judgment. While the fact to merge these two categories into one eliminates these problems because their differentiation method then becomes much more objective in the sense that it is from a technical point of view that they are distinguished. This helps avoid endless debates and identify more easily the demarcation lines.

    The Psychedelic Trance, in its entirety

    in General Psytrance

    Posted

    A few corrections:

     

    Delirium - Spheres 2 isn't Proto-Goa. It's mid-nineties Ambient. A better choice for Proto-Goa would be something like The Infinity Project - Hyperactive, or Trilithon - Trance Dance 128.

     

    Proto-Goa, as it was presented to me, is a sub-style representing the beginnings of Goa Trance. A sub-style being in search of psychedelism. That does not necessarily mean that it should be composed of Trance (or other). This is the case of "Delerium - Spheres II" (Illbient and Ambient). Also, if I follow your rationale, "Ozric Tentacles - Arborescence" should not be found either in the PDF (as it's a cross between Space Rock and Ambient), yet this is the case.

     

    Hence my question: for example, what's the fact or technical element(s) that allows you to say that "Ozric Tentacles - Arborescence" is more appropriate than "Delerium - Sphere II" ?

     

    PS: Trilithon - Trance Dance 128 is already in the PDF.

     

    A few corrections:

     

    Masa - Just Inside isn't Nitzhonot but Oldschool Goa. The high pitched sounds are typical of Japanese Goa artists.

    Ok, it will be modified for the next update ;)

     

    I'd question the inclusion of several albums under 'Experimental.' Man With No Name has never been Experimental, he's one of the most traditional acts of Goa Trance. Juno Reactor - Beyond The Infinite isn't Experimental either, though it incorporates some Proto-Goa influences. Same with Cydonia - In Fear Of A Red Planet, which is a darker Oldschool Goa album, but not particularly Experimental.

    945573arrowdown.jpg

     

    Ok let's explain what Experimental means in this document : it designate freestyle and/or experimental. Unknown kind of psytrance or unknown and unnamed combinations of Psychedelic Trance sub-styles or blends that include other sub-styles than thoses who are present in Psychedelic Trance are placed under "Experimental" flag. That's why Cyclotron (unnamed blend of multiple sub-styles), Moment Of Truth ("classic" Trance + Goa Trance) and Mother Pitch (Goa Trance + Experimental Psytrance) are here.

    In your case, "Juno Reactor - Beyond The Infinite" is a blend of "classic" Trance and Goa Trance and "Cydonia - In Fear Of A Red Planet" is a blend of Goa Trance and Industrial Music ^_^

    The Psychedelic Trance, in its entirety

    in General Psytrance

    Posted · Edited by Lightforce

    Thanks a lot for your help ;)

     

    So, to begin, I'll show a list of sub-styles present in the PDF :

     

    - Proto-Goa
    - Goa Trance
    - Nitzhonot/Uplifting Trance/Nitzhogoa
    - Psytrance
    - Full-On
    - Dark Psytrance/Psycore
    - Forest
    - Twilight/South African Twilight
    - Hi-Tech
    - Psyprog
    - Dark Psyprog
    - Natural Trance
    - Suomisaundi
    - Psybreaks
    - Psybient
    - Experimental
    Now, for each sub-style, I need to know what are the pioneers albums/EP who have led to their creation and what are the albums/EP considered to have accomplished the creation of each sub-styles. Obviously it also takes me dates so I can locate them on the timeline.
    (Proto-goa sub-style is excluded for pioneers albums/EP as it is itself a pioneer sub-style of Goa Trance)
    Let's go for archeology ! ^_^

    The Psychedelic Trance, in its entirety

    in General Psytrance

    Posted

    You know this could end up as something really, really special if you continue to update it. One thing I would suggest is to explore the origins of each subgenre. For example when they first emerged, the albums/comps that defined them, the influences. It would be an actual Psychedelic Trance encyclopedia.

     

    I don't think make it an encyclopedia, but I thought there was some time to create one or more pages containing a timeline of Psychedelic Trance sub-styles. But I would have great need of help with this kind of precise, tedious work. It would take me a lot of exhaustive informations from elders who experienced the various sub-styles in their infancy and the pioneers who participated in their creation.

    The Psychedelic Trance, in its entirety

    in General Psytrance

    Posted

    New update of the PDF, you can download the new version.



    Here is the list of changes that have been made:



    - Modification of the definition in "Dark Psytrance" section


    - Slight modification of the definition in "Hi-Tech" section


    - Album replacement in "Goa Trance (New School)" page from the "Bonus" section ("In A Special Kind of Space" from Cosmic Dimension replaced by "Terrestrial Planet Finder" from Space Elves)


    - Various fixes


    Classic Psytrance nowadays ?

    in General Psytrance

    Posted

    Hi everyone,

     

    After having classified and listened quite "classic" Psytrance albums (old school), I perceived that I quite liked this particular sub-style.
    So my question is : is there still any "classic" Psytrance (with this fx driven Goa aesthetics) productions these days or is it a definitely dead style just as Proto-Goa ?
     
     
    Examples :
     
     
     

    The Psychedelic Trance, in its entirety

    in General Psytrance

    Posted · Edited by Lightforce

    New update of the PDF, you can download the new version.



    Here is the list of changes that have been made:



    - Album replacement in "Nitzhonot" section ("Goldenfinger" from Goldenfinger replaced by "Speed Of Sound" from Trivia)


    - Modification of the definition in "Nitzhonot" section


    - Slight modification of the definition in "Psytrance" section


    - Slight modification of the definition in "Full-On" section


    - Slight modification of the definition in "Forest" section


    - Slight modification of the definition in "Dark Psyprog" section


    - Album replacement in "Goa Trance (New School)" page from the "Bonus" section ("Voice Of Jupiter" from Moonweed replaced by "Fragments Of Evolution" from Omnivox)


    - Addition of a "Nitzhonot" page in the "Bonus" section


    - Addition of a 2nd "Full-On" page in the "Bonus" section


    - Albums replacement in "Twilight" page from the "Bonus" section ("Pirate Signal" from Rinkadink replaced by "Reverse Mode" from Sidhartha and "All Or Nothing" from Solar Axis replaced by "Pirate Signal" from Rinkadink)


    - Various fixes


    The Psychedelic Trance, in its entirety

    in General Psytrance

    Posted · Edited by Lightforce

    Ok, so I finally read it all. First I'm going to say great job. As you can guess from my videos I'm really interested in Psy subgenres, their history and evolution. I love the fact that you made a pdf. It looks great and the links are very helpful.

    I do have some suggestions.

     

    Now I want to make clear that many of this stuff are subjective and they're not corrections just suggestions. So take it as you want.

     

    1) I don't know which Uplifting Trance you mean in the Nitzhonot section, but if you're refering to the Nitzhonot style that became popular in Greece and was called here Uplifting Trance then your description is incorrect. That Uplifting Trance had way more oriental sound than normal Nitzhonot and way more obvious laserkicks. It's the opposite of what you're describing.

    The wiki link you provided is about the normal Trance substyle and not the Nitzhonot one. They have nothing to do with each other. The Uplifting Trance that is related to Nitzhonot is a different style. Check out artist like Cherouvim, Star Children, Darma etc.

     

    2) In your psytrance description you mention that it has more pronounced kicks that Goa. IMO Goa had more pronounced kicks and Psytrance more pronounced bass. After all most of the low frequencies in Goa came from the kick rather the bass.

     

    3) In the Full On description you mention Uplifting Trance as an influence which is true, but this time is the Trance genre (the link is correct). But it creates a confusion between the two Uplifting Trances as I said before.

     

    4) IMO Darkpsy is a better term than Dark Psytrance. Dark Psytrance (at least the way I see it) it refers to any kind of Dark Psytrance subgenre. While Darkpsy refers to the specific style of Psytrance you mention. It may sound stupid, but there are many Psytrance tracks that are dark, but their sound is far from what we call Darkpsy. For example Dark Soho-Sunspot is Dark Psytrance, but it sounds nothing like Darkpsy.

    Also horror samples are very rare to Darkpsy. They are more common in Psycore.

     

    5) In Forest you only slightly mention the Schlabbaduerst sound which is after all the original Forest sound. Before Forest became Darkpsy-ish it was highly melodic with minimum effects. You did put Ka-Sol in the examples, but IMO you must mention the Schlab sound as the origin of this subgenre.

     

    6) Up until this point I've never heard that Psyggresive means Dark Prog and not all of Progressive Psychedelic Trance. Also IMO Dark Prog is not the same as Psy Tech which is the Tech Trance style of the 2000s. They do have a lot of similarities, but IMO they're different.

     

    7) AFAIK Ethereal-Anima Mundi is considered the first new school Goa album (followed by Ypsilon 5 and then Filteria) so I don't know if it belongs to the Old School section.

    8) Is Cosma-Nonstop Full On? I think most ppl would call it Prog than Full On. I may be wrong though.

    9) Psykovsky-Debut is definitely not Psycore. First of all it's not as fast or hard and it's way more complex than Psycore. Psykovsky is what many ppl call Neurotrance, but since it's not a proper term I would list it as Dark Psytrance and not Psycore.

    10) Similarly AFAIK Uncanny Beats is considered the birth of the Hi-Tech sound so I don't know if it belongs to Psycore.

    11) I wouldn't call Drumatik Illegal Space Activities Twilight tbh. In my ears is a less dark Darkpsy.

    Also Rinkadink (which is from South Africa) and Android Spirit (half South African) could be in the Sout Af section. (Although you nailed the South Af section so no need to change that. Maybe remove the single and add an album cover like Artifakt, or Twisted System?) Phatmatix btw is not from SA, but his style is so kudos for including him.

    In the Twilight section you can add Portuguese artists like Khopat or Sidhartha.

    12) IMO Urbal Legends by BOTFB is 100% Forest so I disagree by putting in the Experimental section.

    13) Wizzy Noise Cyclotron is Prog/Tech Trance/Full On, but I couldn't call it Experimental. The same with Moment Of Truth and Mother Pitch.

    14) IMO Experimental is different than Freestyle. While the latter is Psytrance that doesn't stick to a formula, the former breaks the mold completelly (like Psy-Harmonics stuff).

    15) I'm not sure if most ppl will agree that Psytrance=/=Psychedelic Trance. I think that most use it as a shortcut.

     

     

    That's all. Good job again.

     

    Ok, first of all, thanks for your help about this document.

     

    Now, to begin :

     

    1) You're absolutely right about that, I had noticed myself that I had confused the two definitions there some weeks and know that the definition of Uplifting is already in overhaul for some time.

     

    2) As you have said, bass result from kicks. But I can precise it. As you want.

     

    3) And again you're right, I had noticed this nonsense too.

     

    4) However I do not agree with you on the different meaning you give to these two terms. For me both mean the same thing and it would complicate beyond reasonable to separate the two.

     

    5) Ok, I will precise it.

     

    6) Some confusions from me with the term "Psygressive" and "Psy Tech". There are a plenty of sub-subs-styles and many people confound them. I've been helped by people that advised me this terms. Now I know that's incorrect.

     

    7) Same thing here. Initially, I had placed it in the "New School" category but someone asked me to move it to the "Old School" one. So finally flashback. The difficulty of this work also lies in the large number of conflicting informations...

     

    8) We can debate about it but as there is doubt I think leave it where it is.

     

    9) For me Psykovsky's "Debut" album is Psycore but just slower Psycore. It just rid very fast BPMs on some tracks but keeps this swarming aesthetic repeatedly. However, it is true that he really is apart and often create debates due to his very personal style. Again, doubt is permissible.

     

    10) Ok, good to know. Sometimes Psycore and Hi-Tech are more difficult to split.

     

    11) A Twilight style that tends more towards Darkpsy than Full-On. For me it still remains Twilight but, again, there opportunity to debate.

    For others that's noticed. It will be modified (but I think I will keep Phatmatix in SA). Off topic : no idea what the word "kudos" means.

     

    12) Sorry but I disagree with you about Urban Legends. For sure, there is Forest sub-style in this album, but I think it's far to be the only one. There is some Full-On and Experimental psytrance blends. As weird/different can be a Forest track, I've never heard anything like this that can be just called "Forest".

     

    13 & 14) Ok let's explain what Experimental means in this document : it designate freestyle and/or experimental. Unknown kind of psytrance or unknown and unnamed combinations of Psychedelic Trance sub-styles or blends that include other sub-styles than thoses who are present in Psychedelic Trance are placed under "Experimental" flag. That's why Cyclotron (unnamed blend of multiple sub-styles), Moment Of Truth ("classic" Trance + Goa Trance) and Mother Pitch (Goa Trance + Experimental Psytrance) are here.

     

    15) I understand this fact. But this is the only way to keep clear discussions around Psychedelic Trance sub-styles.

     

    Moonweed - Voice Of Jupiter doesn't belong in the newschool goa section, but rather in oldschool.

    And similarly, Ethereal - Anima Mundi isn't oldschool but one of the first newschool goa albums :)

     

    (And just personally I'd like to see PortaMento - The Portal and Omnivox - Fragments Of Evolution in the newschool (bonus) section).

     

    For Ethereal, ok. But for Moonweed, why ? (And thanks for the album recommendation BTW ;) )

     

    And maybe a bit nitpicking but the album cover for Cydonia - In Fear Of A Red Planet in the experimental bonus section is from the Avatar re-release. The original Blue Room cover would be better in this case :)

    Ok, why not. Let's change this ^_^

     

    EDIT : finally Ethereal album must stay in Old School => The first versions of tracks released on "Anima Mundi" already date back to 1999 and including an EP was available in 1999 as DAM CD distributed by MP3.com. The album has tooked a long time to be finalized and was finally released in 2003.

    The Psychedelic Trance, in its entirety

    in General Psytrance

    Posted · Edited by Lightforce

    New update of the PDF, you can download the new version.



    Here is the list of changes that have been made:



    - Addition of a personal note at the end of the pdf ;)


    - Slight rectification of the definition in "Psyprog" section


    - Additions of representative label(s) for each sub-style


    - Addition of several albums in "Proto-Goa" page of "Bonus" section ("The Harlequin - The Robot And The Ballet-Dancer" from Sven Väth, "Eternal Brainwave" from Zen Paradox, "Ancient Future" from Third Eye, "U.F.Orb" from The Orb, "Spheres II" from Delerium and "Arborescence" from Ozric Tentacles)


    - Albums replacements in "Goa Trance (New School)" page from the "Bonus" section ("Tesseract" from PharaOm and "Space Of Power - The Legend about Great Existence of the Universe" from Various Artists replaced by "Under The Sun Of Goa" from PharaOm and "At The Mountains Of Madness" from Proxeeus)


    - Album replacement in "Full-On" page from the "Bonus" section ("Intelligent Being" from Braincell and "Unleash The Beat" from Sonic Species replaced by "Transformation Of Reality" from Braincell and "Grimoire" from 01-N)


    - Addition of several albums in "Forest" page of "Bonus" section ("Primal Contact" from Arjuna, "Under The Moss Vol. 2", "Under The Moss Vol. 3", "The Oldest Story", "Voices Of The Trees", "The Underground Never Dies" and "Forest of Banyan II" from Various Artists and "Eventyr" from Synthetic Forest)


    - Album replacement in "Experimental" page from the "Bonus" section ("Flight 604 | Chapter II" from Various Artists replaced by "Full-OM" from Eternal Bliss)


    - Various fixes


    The Psychedelic Trance, in its entirety

    in General Psytrance

    Posted

    Hi, good work. But You wrote progressive trance emerged in the mid 2000s. I don´t think, that this is correct. Maybe since then it evolved in another direction , but progressive trance in a more minimal form was quite popular, maybe even the most popular style, end of the nineties at least in germany, switzerland...

    I think of artists like tarsis/sbk, reefer decree, xv lillist... but also artists like ticon, son kite, human blue, atmos...I Think, that this should also be mentioned!

    Greets Simon

     

    You're right, thanks for the correction. I will change this for next update ;)

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