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PsyTrance Bass Synthesis VST - Which do you like!?


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I'll share some personal thoughts in relation to what has been discussed. I think there is a difference between clean sound and precise sound, they may however evolved together. Serum to me is clean and precise, it is the one synth I never used on bass line, I don't like the overly clinical texture and for whatever reason (maybe the envelopes) I just never got what I wanted from it. Many love it, and unsurprisingly their bass lines don't blow me away either, that is very much a taste thing though (and there are exceptions my last track had the cleanest bass I ever made so far, maybe even too clean ! (But you know these things happen in moments of production and you draw from them - my tracks are often technical exercises as well as music). As synth for leads for sure Serum has its place, it's a fantastic synth. Maybe I need to spend time adjusting the waveform as Astral Projection mentions. Precision for me is the timing element, for me this is FAR from soulless, in fact this "auditory faculty confusing" precision is a big part of the psycho acoustic element that messes with your ears/brain. The timing is so precise it creates ambiguity at the edges of human timing perception and allows multiple interesting rhythms to be presented to the ears (often depending on spectral focus). It creates an effect you cannot quite explain in words, for me it is no surprise this evolved in this music, it is quite fitting.

I have not seen this on an oscilloscope.

I am not sure clean sound is always soul-less, as melody and the track itself can counter that for me. I do however understand the generalization (clean, cold, clinical, too controlled, too tight etc.) I think that sound is to be celebrated as much as analogue Goa.

What we have is the best of both worlds, maybe as an artist you have the perfect situation to calibrate that sound for your own unique ends ?

In my humble opinion, no one has produced a thicker fatter more saturated sound than Electric Universe, check out Mystical experiences / Millenia.. now that is a sound ! 20+ years of artistic experience worth. His thick powerful kick and bass are quite unique as well, err.. when did you hear a snare smack you like that last (Millenia)? That will punch holes in your walls. I also love Mad Tribe Space Tribe (try Tuned in perfectly that is in my top 10 bass lines, deep thick chugging lumps of psy trance bass) for the punky trashy w-i-d-e sound, it's wild.. it is precise where it needs to be but the mixes have not controlled every tiny last detail that gives it a wilder sound than most. These artists are broadly singing from the same hymn sheet for me, EU just has a slightly thicker presentation in the leads slightly less wide, neither subscribe to the clean kick and bass (or any of the sounds)

Much is spoken about saturation, it is very difficult to do well from plug ins IMO. Like pretty much everything about psy trance... and that is why it remains one of the most demanding, challenging and interesting dance music forms ( and that is before you even consider the history and culture)

Psy trance is in a rather unique position, it champions technology and has pushed it to new areas and yet is a very visceral and physically attractive sound for humans. It resonates.. no one forgets psy trance even if it scared the living days out of you as a person who does not get it. It touches something, something some people don't want to be touched and for others it releases a feeling of exhilaration and excitement no other music can. For all its hard technical edge it draws people in and ignites interesting human responses and interactions.

CD or vinyl, personally give me CD/wav files any day.. it does not wear out (and then becomes grossly distorted and the extreme top end wears out and disappears pretty quick no longer representing the artists original intentions) You can master any music to have the dynamics of vinyl with ease. It's just that no one does.

I like how this topic broadened into many interesting areas.

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I am not the overseer of all psy trance kick and bass but I know a few bits and bobs. Just as well as every time I make a track I use different synths different processing and I enjoy that, at least 5

Have you heard such basslines on big and good soundsystems on parties and festivals? Or is it just home listening?     In my opinion when you put so much effort in something it can't

If we talk about modern KbBB patterns, the phase relationships between the kick tail and the first bass note, at the point where they overlap, are very important. It's one of the things that define th

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4 hours ago, MikroMakro said:

Serum to me is clean and precise, it is the one synth I never used on bass line, I don't like the overly clinical texture and for whatever reason (maybe the envelopes) I just never got what I wanted from it. Many love it, and unsurprisingly their bass lines don't blow me away either, that is very much a taste thing though (and there are exceptions my last track had the cleanest bass I ever made so far, maybe even too clean ! 

Have you heard such basslines on big and good soundsystems on parties and festivals? Or is it just home listening?

 

 

4 hours ago, MikroMakro said:

Precision for me is the timing element, for me this is FAR from soulless, in fact this "auditory faculty confusing" precision is a big part of the psycho acoustic element that messes with your ears/brain.

In my opinion when you put so much effort in something it can't be soulless, nevermind if it's made for huge audience like Vini Vici or for normal psytrance events. You put so much time, effort and yourself into someting. You literally put soul into it.

 

4 hours ago, MikroMakro said:

What we have is the best of both worlds, maybe as an artist you have the perfect situation to calibrate that sound for your own unique ends ?

In my humble opinion, no one has produced a thicker fatter more saturated sound than Electric Universe, check out Mystical experiences / Millenia.. now that is a sound ! 20+ years of artistic experience worth. His thick powerful kick and bass are quite unique as well, err.. when did you hear a snare smack you like that last (Millenia)? That will punch holes in your walls. I also love Mad Tribe Space Tribe (try Tuned in perfectly that is in my top 10 bass lines, deep thick chugging lumps of psy trance bass) for the punky trashy w-i-d-e sound, it's wild.. it is precise where it needs to be but the mixes have not controlled every tiny last detail that gives it a wilder sound than most. These artists are broadly singing from the same hymn sheet for me, EU just has a slightly thicker presentation in the leads slightly less wide, neither subscribe to the clean kick and bass (or any of the sounds)

 

EU - Mad Tribe guys are killer, probably one of best Psy music today and stand out. So clean yet so dirty with loads of 90s sounds!

 

New Burn in Noise album is amazing, he have some retro melodies combined with 2020's sound. To me he is more Goaish than most of Goa today lol:

 

Imagine this with couple more melodies over the top. It would be super killer track for dancefloor and it is already.

 

Here is one more of goaish psytrance example, loads of 303:

 

 

You can have good, clean, precise and fat structure of track with dirty leads over. KBBBK pattern doesn't makes you fullon or psytrance, you can take best parts of every style you like and combine in your track. Triplets and gated shamanic voice doesn't make you progressive, it was done long before progressive. Here is your fullon bassline from 96:

 

 

There should be good balance. Imagine you listen to 90mins set of only melodies or only triplets, it's painful. Imagine 7 days festival with same Goa scheme over and over. Or any style. I wouldn't go listening to that even if you pay me lol

 

That's why I enjoyed Apsara, so much Goa for everyone's taste. Goa styles for every time of day, from smooth to euphoric, from agressive to dark over nights. Old and new, mixture of both... everything! You are listening to same genre but with so many variaties.

 

 

4 hours ago, MikroMakro said:

Psy trance is in a rather unique position, it champions technology and has pushed it to new areas and yet is a very visceral and physically attractive sound for humans. It resonates.. no one forgets psy trance even if it scared the living days out of you as a person who does not get it. It touches something, something some people don't want to be touched and for others it releases a feeling of exhilaration and excitement no other music can. For all its hard technical edge it draws people in and ignites interesting human responses and interactions.

 

There is what I call 'science' behind Psy/Goa trance production. There are things you make, and thinks you should make. Successful/big artist managed to learn that. There are some patterns that really works well, certain patterns of rhythm, or breaks, buildups, leads, fx, just name it. Certain patterns of how to do mixdown, what to push what to remove. Certain things must be done because certain drugs being used on festivals, certain things will put down crowd down if not done correctly. That's what is experience for. If you want your music to work always, you must balance between what you like and what works. Music is like marriage, if you want it to last and work, you must make some compromises, you must balance.

 

I remember when I worked on first album 5 years ago and decided to make 9 minute track with only 1 break at 5th minute. Tension bulding up for minutes and minutes. I played that and after 2-3 mins people were like wtf where is the break, where is the mood change? Same happend on another event, with another crowd, and event after and after so I said ok this is not working lets change it. I kept idea but added very short breaks on every 90-120 secs and changed some melodies so there can be bigger difference in mood in different parts of track and yeah it worked pretty well. It still works on dancefloor.

 

Later I was lucky to meet some top artists in scene and talk with them regarding production and it's tricks and they told me, 2 mins break, make a tension, build up and then put down, switch from full power to minimal power, or some smoother part then build up again but always keep evolving it. People need break. On festivals in summer dancefloor can have 40 degrees celsius, it's not always for jumping like crazy. People also like to stomp and gallop, people like to shake their asses smootly.

 

 

There are so muuuuuuch things to consider and learn if you want to be successful and play often for tons of people and it takes years, maybe 5 maybe 15. It's a bit easier today with all these tutorials, presets and sample than it was back in 2008 when I started. Way too easier! Yet it takes lots of time.

Or you simply just want to make it for yourself and don't care much, share it with friends, post it on Youtube and that is totally fine! 

 

I am always for to give best of yourself, your present knowledge and equipment. Push to the limits and don't think that just because you like it or it's up to your taste that can't be better - this way you can advance, whatever style you are making :)

 

 

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@ImbaSome really interesting and insightful reflections/experience. Thanks for sharing. :) Apsara sounds like a dream to me, here in Sweden I haven't even managed to hear one single goa track this summer on the outdoors. It has been interesting nonetheless, to see what's out there so to say. I have also been thinking sometimes about the energy/flow of the dancefloor, which seems to be quite different from country to country and like you wrote as well depending on the climate. In Sweden I always got the impression for example that when the slower prog became popular people really enjoyed the tempo of that, females in particular. It wasn't as energy consuming for an entire night.

With full power goa people tap out pretty quick, and typically only the most hardcore or perhaps most drugged out ones will keep on lol. In the swedish forests during the night at the end of the summer, it's usually really chilly and nice compared to indoor parties where it gets too hot. So there people might enjoy the full power mood more without even getting particularly sweaty. And yeah I definitely get the impression that people nowadays are very acustomed to the pacing of the interspersed breaks that the modern styles has made common. Which will make it very difficult for any goa artist I think when playing at the same event as more modern styles. I went to one event just before the corona outbreak, which was techno and psy in a big industrial type setting, on the psy floor Tristan and some other Nano rec artist played, and they utilized the format you mentioned with several tension buildup/release/breaks etc. 

And btw regarding bpm, always when someone asks me if I'm into techno or psy at these combined techno/psy events in Sweden(I don't even explain that I'm into goa, they don't even know the difference most of the time). They'll be like ooh psy is too fast!! So the lower bpm/simplicity of techno is probably an aspect of what makes it so popular I think. It's easy to dance to all night long.

From watching videos on youtube I get the impression that the Belgian and Israeli crowds are very energetic. :DCompared to the Swedish ones atleast, when it comes to goa parties.

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I wonder what are the minimum monitoring requirements for making a really classy KbBB, ready for festivals and big speakers.

 

I think I'm out anyways, all I have in my possession is a tiny room (about 11 square meters) with some DIY acoustic treatment and 7inch monitors, I don't even have a sub because with my room dimensions this doesn't seem to be practical. Just wonder what rooms do big producers have (minimum size) and how much do they invest into treatment and monintors/sub.

 

The question also applies to techno, D&B and any other genre that needs a precise sub frequencies control

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its good to read everyones thoughts on this, as difference of opinion is important - and very much a good thing. 

about vinyl vs cd; i meant it only as a reference to that we do love a little dirt on the signal path. I too prefer digital audio files; vinyl is just way too expensive; and cumbersome, and as you say Mikro; it degrades over time and thats just how it is.. But there is no denying that a record without scratch and dirt, on a properly set-up turntable with a decent amplfiication stage - sounds better than a CD can. I dont mean to sound like a purist or audiophile cause i really am not; but I also dont deny that the music sounds more alive on vinyl and more pleasant to the ears. 

 

I dont agree what is said about serum; that it is not good for Basslines; on the contrary i think its the perfect synth for basslines since the envelopes can be Exact; sloppy; snappy; slow, whatever you like - and the waveform can; too. So i dont see the logic behind that one, but agree to disagree. (For example you can set decay time of the envelope to be exactly 1/16 without first calculating it into ms, and you can draw your own custom envelope shapes. So in that regard it is really on top. And the ability to dirty-fy your waveforms via either FFT (select exactly what harmonics you want) or via whatever modulation you like - makes it extremely versatile too; specially creating "analog-like" sounds)

 

also strongly disagree on Electric Universe :) I think his stuff has become borderline unlistenable over the years ^^ 

 

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I will just reply to Imba for now... in point order

1) Yes heard and dance to a lot of psy trance on big systems, the dancing is a big thing for me, at festivals and it is my daily exercise (ok not every day but regularly) typically Funktion 1 at festivals (5-8 a year although not this year of course). I have seen one artist "live" who seems to use Serum. I won't deny I am fortunate enough to have an exceptional personal listening situation, you could term it "audiophile".

2) Yes I agree with that for sure, I guess it does not resonate with everyone, actually that is pretty much impossible, not every track is your best and even it for yourself it may not at all be for listeners. I recall telling a mid level artist that tune X was probably one of the best psy trance tracks I have ever heard. He replies saying... oh I never even think about that one much. This must be the case for many many track, I find sometimes with 1 track of a compilation is superb. Resonance with a listener is an interesting thing.

3)  EU and ST/MT have been doing this since Goa times, and yes they take that spirit with them now (both melody and sound design with remnants of classic Goa de-tuned saw leads in some of the leads) along with all the modern touches.

4) I like Burn in Noise a lot, my fave track is Loco, I will listen to his new material - I have been out of the loop for a few months with new releases.

5) Luckily I enjoy dancing, this helps a lot, I know what you mean about expectations, fine line between experimenting and a familiar formulation. This is for everyone to work out themselves. I don't know... drugs.. I can get a tingle all over listening and dancing in my garden sober... I think drug use which seems fairly moderated from what I see, rare to see open over the top use at festivals, people seem to be careful.. it probably just just extends the musics capabilities. Even drinking alcohol is a totally different thing with psy trance the context changes it radically.

Speaking to people who are more experienced than you is a good thing... short breaks of some kinds seem fine..however I find breaks kill the meditative trance mood. Sometimes they are very very disturbing in fact especially if they drag on.... again this is our job to work out. PS I like your track Golden Times, great name as well.

The last point is very difficult, it is very difficult to be objective about your own music and unless it is played out difficult to know... the risk I guess is people like the familiar so you just make the familiar ? Not sure, that is not where I am at really... I have had some positive feedback on unsolicited play outs and took a chance myself to get my music played on a sound system on Anjuna beach which was nice.

Agreed, always do the best you can at that time.

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A bit more response.. Recursive I would say there is no set standard.. it could range from £500.00 studio monitors to £15,000.00 + of studio monitors, I heard Tristan say in a video he also has an actual PA system to test his tracks on... the room can be of various sizes and as far as I see online rather different levels of acoustic treatment from professional to  a more humble treatment. I don't think there is any specific standard it will vary greatly. I guess it also depends if you use a sample or a synth, or if your label or mix engineer wants to change your bass line.. I think it can happen. (of late some bigger producers have been hiring a mix engineers - often a respected psy producer themselves)

Astral...I am sure great bass lines can be made using Serum just not by me. It is the synth I have put the least effort into for bass lines. I never got the weight I wanted from it... maybe I am just using it wrong. You tend to stick with what you know.. I have plenty of options that seem to be faster and better to my ears.  (as in I hear what I personally want to hear more easily). Each to their own and let's be thankful for that.

Nothing wrong with loving the sound of vinyl.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, MikroMakro said:

A bit more response.. Recursive I would say there is no set standard.. it could range from £500.00 studio monitors to £15,000.00 + of studio monitors, I heard Tristan say in a video he also has an actual PA system to test his tracks on... 

 

From what I heard/know, our serbian musical pride - Talpa has worked so many years on  table in living room on KRK 6 which he sold. And after he complained that he will buy another KRK because he is used and perfected on them. Only last year he managed to finish and move to studio, I think those are KRK 8 now:

 

 

 

3 hours ago, MikroMakro said:

the room can be of various sizes and as far as I see online rather different levels of acoustic treatment from professional to  a more humble treatment.

 

Last year I also 'made' my studio. All panels were DIY and thankfuly to Colin OOOD who gave me various tutorials on that, I was able to save loads of money, to make them look good and have good use! Lets say it costed me 60-70% less from finished product prices - I saved enough to buy monitors, lights and rest fancy stuff. Room is 4x3m, superchunk basstraps in all corners plus flat traps on first reflection points (above head too) and rest filled with pyramidal foam to collect more mids and higs. Luckily in this room i have wood paneling ceilings filled with glasswool which extra isolation. Hairy and heavy carpet which is also big plus. All in all, huge game changer for around 500-600 euro. 1/3 of room is completely isolated. It's very acoustic and in same way I can make music non stop full power without disturbing anyone in other rooms or outside house! Some photos before decoration and with:

72582825_10218280963828467_7901475914549

 

75081239_10218384450815577_3478393600989

 

 

3 hours ago, MikroMakro said:

PS I like your track Golden Times, great name as well.

 

Now compare that sound/mixdown to Imba - Liberation which was made/mixed in this studio after. Or with any new releases in future :)

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Following on from the "you need to use an oscilloscope" if you want your music to sound good on a big system. There is an element of truth in this, it is a very useful visual aid...as I mentioned it will help avoid anomalies that can cause sub cancellation and get you in the ball park. (avoid strange psychoacoustic effects that sound "odd" to the ear)


One thing to know about some of the best PA systems. They are wide bandwidth, they have lots of headroom, they have low distortion and very good driver integration, superb transient response and if you are really lucky they are outdoors  : ) Infinite bass traps to the sky ! (so you hear the sound system and not PA system  and skewed response of a room, arguably perfect sound)


Anything you play though them will sound better than a sound system that is fundamentally poorly designed (or in a terrible acoustic space, dropping 120dB of sub bass into a big room), under powered, poor frequency response, limited bandwidth, relatively high distortion (old/worn drivers and amps)  lower tech, lower quality drivers, crossovers and build quality (poor cabs/ bad bracing/resonant cabs).... or just worn out since 20 years of playing out.


The high headroom and low distortion is important because when you listen to many big artists there is variation in their output.... tonally. Some are more subby, some brighter, some have a little thick sound some a little thinner, some more saturated, some cleaner. There are many ways to sound good. Some of this is taste driven.. but to judge it correctly you need accuracy in the monitoring from the start.


So my opinion is you can sound good on a big PA even if your kick and bass line is not so rocking. I have have danced to music from a fairly unknown artist and been very happy and enjoyed the sound (very much melody driven but not Goa) and kbbb.... only to find when I got home and listened, I found them meh (actually not very good at all IMO and compared objectively to a big artist well versed in great kbbb).... so not so great kick and bass after all. (The complete opposite of the premise of "Do you listen at the party on great sound systems?" )


So how did this phenomena happen ?


You see at the party you are happy, having a great time, the music is loud and your adrenaline and endorphins are flowing. So maybe your overall impression is actually better than a cold hard objective listen on headphones or speakers at home.


Remember other than phase alignment of the kick tail and bass note 1 (and potential cancellation of sub) an oscilloscope tells you very little about the spectral content of a kick and bass... sub content, mids and transients. (HPF or low shelf cut choices, harmonic EQ choices minimum or linear phase EQ choices - well ok if non linear phase then this will show up as a phase shift on the scope) but it does not suggest much about how much sub/bass/mids and tops do you have in your kbbb. All of these aspects are also very important to sounding good on those big PA systems. Some tracks have PLENTY of sub and some much less and both can sound good and drive a track along.


What may well influence this more is ... am I aiming my mix to be as loud as the big releases when mastered. (Disclosure...I am professional mastering engineer) So sub amount given a PA system we shall call "The Reference PA" - A hypothetical flat PA system from 30Hz-20kHz outdoor with infinite bass traps to the clouds can be different depending on taste/ perceived volume  choices / mistakes in monitoring. It is not just "use an oscilloscope and you will be guaranteed to sound good on a big system".


There will come a time when more than 50pct of the people on the dance floor will think... woah... too subby or, bass seems light .... too much top end or... upper mids are making my ears hurt I am off to sit this out for a while etc. etc. This is to be avoided and ideally at the mixing stage. (even though the suggestion is about broad tonality of a release.)


Also a note about how much sub, how much bass in the kick and bass... well I can tell you at least one  sound system for psy trance I have heard was tuned more like D&B sound system with COLOSSAL sub bass... I mean over kill subs. So to coin the term "on a big  sound system" there is not always a standard, as in if you want to sound good on a big sound system... there is no standard sound system for a start. There are multiple parameters that need to be precisely hitting "The middle path" to satisfy more than 50pct of the listeners. (not just a scope alignment)

This can avoid the subby track sounding like thunder is striking the party on a system tuned with too much sub and a bass light track sounding like "Thin fest" on a system where the extra sub reinforcement was left in the PA hire warehouse.


And as mentioned some artists have a thicker deep sub than others, this also relates to your bass line root note. I am all for this mixing style variation, it is a form of artistic difference that can maybe make different artists stand out a little more over an above their musicality differences. (maybe not the most deep of artistic differences, compared with synthesis, instrumentation choices, style, melody or more effects based psy, sub genre choice, melodic or sound effects based psy etc.).. but a choice nonetheless, notwithstanding mistakes caused from sub optimal listening conditions.

Food for thought.

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Thanks and the great thing with psy trance in all its guises is it is a very rich music, technically and culturally and there is a lot to learn and enjoy, it is nice and a privilege to be involved with something that can be limitless.

 

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mood, context, effect so so much !  and context covers so many things, time of day, location, substances, dj style before, dj style after, festivals main genre vs sub genres, listening at home, listening while dancing, listening while working, all in context.  there are days I love everything I hear, then there are days I don't feel the same instant enjoyment to many songs.   breaks from listening are good, even pauses and exploring with completely different styles of music.

great points here, i like the discussions sub topics here as well.  i need to evaluate Golden Times and Liberation as well ! i own both so it will be easy to listen and analyze.  either way I can't wait to get some more acoustical treatments! =) 

oh and yea breakdowns are a necessary evil to the trance state ! they are needed for that one moment (15-35 seconds) of rest and no beat, but there is a very fine line, as a dancer if a break down is too long which is very easy to be too long, it tends to be extra cheesy and you are just waiting for the beat to dance again. but no breakdowns you are desperately waiting for it to take a breath.

and @Imba I love your point about having soul into productions.  i can relate to that!  and I like your point about compromise, with what an artist truly loves and what formulas are proven to be effective, all in balance and in moderation! you cant have too much of one or the other.

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Freedom is a great thing and choosing what your break should be like is your choice/intention as an artist : ) Personally speaking, breaks interrupt the trance state,... especially ones that make no musically timed sense, lol. When I dance the energy seemingly given almost feels like perpetual biological energy is being released (like more energy than you actual have available, actually giving you energy) And I mean by endogenous means. I think most people can moderate there own pace of dancing through a track and I know I can slow the flamboyant shapes I am throwing down when need be, ha ha. just standing and nodding to the beat with my eyes closed, taking in air or looking around at the collective experience and enjoying that.

Of late I have been leaning towards subdued sections that maintain pulse... I enjoy being lost in a moment and the pulse is the focus that brings that state into being.

Literally do what you think works though, there are many ways to do everything, this music is awesome, nothing else quite produces the effect of this music. I long for the days to be back at the parties, like we all do, till then there is the garden and a gaze to the horizon.

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Not sure if this plugin has been linked in the thread? Anyone has any experience with it?

https://www.soundradix.com/products/pi/

"

PI is an innovative, multi-channel phase interactions mixer plug-in engine for Mac and PC.

Good phase relationships are key to a great sounding mix. When tracks are summed into a stereo mix bus, instruments tend to overlap and interact with each other across the frequency range and phase position. A bass track could be temporarily out of phase with the kick or rhythm guitar tracks, and when summed together the two instruments would cancel each other out over the overlapping frequency range, causing a temporary "hole" in the low end. Similarly, a snare track could end up sounding thin in a mix when the toms' resonance is out of phase with the snare.

Enter PI.

Designed to enhance any mix, PI dynamically rotates the phase of the individual mixer channels to achieve maximum phase correlation within the mix. PI minimizes negative interaction and significantly improves the overall sound of the mix. Just drop PI into the last insert slot of each of your DAW mixer channels and listen."

 

 

265901C3-FC9C-4A19-BA15-C182351C7561.png

 

If it works as advertised, and is useful for psy/goa, it sounds like one less headache and -249 usd on the bank account lol :P From watching the video tho surely it must lack the fine control one needs for psy? Since psy kicks are so different to what he tests the plugin on etc.

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20 hours ago, MikroMakro said:

I think most people can moderate there own pace of dancing through a track

usually yes, but when i first heard dimension 5 play a liveset i had to lie down for 15 mins in the middle of the set to catch my breath ;)

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21 hours ago, AstralSphinx said:

If it works as advertised, and is useful for psy/goa, it sounds like one less headache and -249 usd on the bank account lo

TBH, I don't think you need a dedicated 250 bucks plugin to put your psy kicks and basses into good order. If you synthesze your kicks and basses you can acheive good match between them by tweaking the kick tail pitch envelope and the bass starting phase and then you likely won't need any phase aligning tool at all. If you use a kick sample you can just find out the key/bpm where it work best with your bass and then all you may need is a sample delay utility, which your DAW may have (if not, download Forward Audio Sample Delay thingy, it's free), to align them a bit better.

There is also that method Imba posted earlier here, it also uses only free plugins but I haven't tried it yet.  

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I just checked Dimension 5, I see yes they keep the pulse going.. I am a fan of breakdown but kick continues of late, why I am not sure it just evolved that way as I put the tracks together... the dancer has a choice  The cue is there for a rest or carry nodding on, more versatile. I think you are right Recursion loop... maybe that plug in is the best thing since sliced bread, we should probably all try it on the next mix... but you can always try using your ears as well. I find if the KbBB is sounding radically different in headphones, or just plain wrong in the H/P's... compared to speakers (in a room you can trust pretty well) then most likely more work needs to be done to zone it in. It is not easy.. it is like running the gauntlet every time I start a track.

All of this is whetting my appetite for a new kick and bass, it's been a while.

 

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31 minutes ago, recursion loop said:

TBH, I don't think you need a dedicated 250 bucks plugin to put your psy kicks and basses into good order. If you synthesze your kicks and basses you can acheive good match between them by tweaking the kick tail pitch envelope and the bass starting phase and then you likely won't need any phase aligning tool at all. If you use a kick sample you can just find out the key/bpm where it work best with your bass and then all you may need is a sample delay utility, which your DAW may have (if not, download Forward Audio Sample Delay thingy, it's free), to align them a bit better.

There is also that method Imba posted earlier here, it also uses only free plugins but I haven't tried it yet.  

Thanks will check out, that's the issue right now for me, the thread has shown quite a few ways to go about this problem. I'm just not sure which way would work best for me. I use logic pro x, only ever use kick samples imported to kontakt, basslines synthesized. But just out of curiousity, would the expensive plugin from Soundradix do the same job but faster? Or is its target audience primarily people who records live instruments/rock/pop music etc? What has me skeptical is this part in the product description:

"PI minimizes negative interaction andsignificantly improves the overall sound of the mix."

Because what we are looking for I guess isn't something that "minimizes the issue, rather eliminates it altogheter, right? If I have understood it correcly that is. So what I would find interesting is how this plugin would work isolated on kick and bass, compared to the methods provided in this thread.

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Regarding the reccurring breaks in todays psy/full on tracks. I'm thinking of making a separate thread concerning it in the general section. It wasn't really something I was exposed to much since I'm more a goa head than full-on. But on the latest parties I had to since my friends are into that style. While I do understand the need for some break, one is enough for me as in goa, and the ocassional smaller breaks sometimes prior to a more elevated section, similar to a pre-chorus in pop. But oh well every style has their defining features.

I think too much breaks/gimmicks kill the flow more than anything, hence why I prefer the acid/techno floor if full-on and acid/techno is played at the same venue. I want that non-stop experience. :) And I just take a break and go and mingle instead if I feel exhausted. The interspersed galloping/change in time signature just feels like somekind of an aerobics pass to me, and kills the trance flow. What I do love is the hip hop inspired breakbeats sometimes employed in goa trance. Usually in the final part of the song before the catharsis, reminscent in function of the break employed in pop music before the final chorus. Sometimes in the intro as well in goa trance.

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47 minutes ago, AstralSphinx said:

Because what we are looking for I guess isn't something that "minimizes the issue, rather eliminates it altogheter, right? If I have understood it correcly that is. So what I would find interesting is how this plugin would work isolated on kick and bass, compared to the methods provided in this thread.

Buy it and tell us then :)

 

 

47 minutes ago, AstralSphinx said:

 I'm just not sure which way would work best for me.

Only you can decide.

What kind of kick/bass are you making? bpms, kick style (short and punchy or long subby tail? or tonal like goa kicks?), bassline style? Most imprortantly, do you feel you kick/bass combo lacks something and what excatly it lacks (if it does)?

Phase aligment tips discussed here are not some kind of cool thing all the cool guys are doing because they are cool guys, it's a set of techniques that can improve the groove and maybe the tonal qualities (sub content) of your kick/bass in certain specific situations. Or can be useless in others.

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57 minutes ago, recursion loop said:

Buy it and tell us then :)

 

 

Only you can decide.

What kind of kick/bass are you making? bpms, kick style (short and punchy or long subby tail? or tonal like goa kicks?), bassline style? Most imprortantly, do you feel you kick/bass combo lacks something and what excatly it lacks (if it does)?

Phase aligment tips discussed here are not some kind of cool thing all the cool guys are doing becuase they are cool guys, it's a set of techniques that can improve the groove and maybe the tonal qualities (sub content) of your kick/bass in certain specific situations. Or can be useless in others.

But I wanna be a cool guy :D I wanna use it mainly to impress on hot chicks, preferably models. And to achieve dat signature trademarked signatue NHJO sound. ;)

On a serious note, what I want to adress is of course perceived mudiness in the low end. Instead of using sidechain which I never liked. Style is goa mostly, with some excursions in style experimentation sometimes. I mostly use big kicks of the tonal goa variety and sometimes more psy oriented kicks if I think they sound more boxy/deep and fitting to what I like. Often long and subby kicks, bpm range between 137 and 145. Sometimes a silly higher pitched short kick above the bassline, at others and most commonly a deeper lower pitched one and the bass on top.

And nah I will try the free alternatives provided in the thread before I buy more unnecessary things. :P Was curious to hear if anyone had used the plugin. 

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34 minutes ago, AstralSphinx said:

On a serious note, what I want to adress is perceived mudiness in the low end. 

Muddiness may have many causes, phase conflicts, frequency conflicts (not necerssary kick/bass, the leads may interfere the low end too if not hipassed enough). Some of that may be adressed even before the actual mixing, at sound design/arrangement stage.

I had been making very muddy mixes before I treated my room, so I know a lot about that :D 

What's about your room and monitors? Are you sure you hear your bass right? 

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12 minutes ago, recursion loop said:

Muddiness may have many causes, phase conflicts, frequency conflicts (not necerssary kick/bass, the leads may interfere the low end too if not hipassed enough). Some of that may be adressed even before the actual mixing, at sound design/arrangement stage.

I had been making very muddy mixes before I treated my room, so I know a lot about that :D 

What's about your room and monitors? Are you sure you hear your bass right? 

 

Yes indeed, it's a complex issue with many possible culprits. My listening situation is less than ideal today, which is why I'm curious about the visual solutions provided here as well. As far as the room and monitors that aspect is far from optimal, so my only trustworthy options at the moment are oscilloscope and headphones. The room is untreated, and the monitors are not good. :) So for now I don't even count them into the equation. Saving up for some Genelecs. As for leads and other interfering sounds I always high-pass them for sure. 

Did the room treatment take lots of time/money? The artisan/craftsmanship part is what concerns me the most since I'm not good at those things at all. That is working with hammers/powertools etc. I'm way too clumsy.

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1 hour ago, AstralSphinx said:

Did the room treatment take lots of time/money?

It's hard to estimate exactly as it was a part of bigger refurbishment I did in my appartment.

The materials didn't cost a lot, I used Rockwool Acoustic Batts and Lutrasil for covering (it's our local product, generally you need acoustically transparent fabric) they aren't very expensive here. 

I think when people say 500-600 EUR that's more or less close to what I've actually spent on the whole thing (or maybe it was even less) - but this will depend on your local prices ofc.

Great article on that, basically I did what's described here

https://www.masteringmastering.co.uk/cheap-acoustic-treatment-for-mixing.html

 

I'd also say that the room treatment should be done before buying new monitors. For a year after I had treated my room I was using the same shitty KRK Rokit G5 as I had before but the treatment drastically improved my mixing abilities (or, to put it bluntly, I finally became able to deliver passable mixes :D )

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39 minutes ago, recursion loop said:

It's hard to estimate exactly as it was a part of bigger refurbishment I did in my appartment.

The materials didn't cost a lot, I used Rockwool Acoustic Batts and Lutrasil for covering (it's our local product, generally you need acoustically transparent fabric) they aren't very expensive here. 

I think when people say they 500-600 EUR that's more or less close to what I've actually spent on the whole thing (or maybe it was even less) - but this will depend on your local prices ofc.

Great article on that, basically I did what's described here

https://www.masteringmastering.co.uk/cheap-acoustic-treatment-for-mixing.html

 

I'd also say that the room treatment should be done before buying new monitors. For a year after I had treated my room I was uing the same shitty KRK Rokit G5 as I had before but the treatment drastically improved my mixing abilities (or, to put it bluntly, I finally became able to deliver passable mixes :D )

Interesting article, reading now. Thanks!

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