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Lightforce    47

Thx for your comments. Let's debate about all of this :)

- for "The Monkey Puzzle", it has its place in Natural Trance and in a perfect way. I don't understand why it shoudn't be there. Taken on their bandcamp : "Tamara Kazziha – Vocals and Violin, Ralph Stokes – Guitar, Andy Strong – Clarinet, Ian, Gibb – Bass, David French – Drums, Andrew Clark – Percussion and FX". Furthermore, it has a lots of Psyprog elements. So it fits this category. Nothing wrong here to my mind :)

for "Kataphasis", same : it has its place in Natural Trance. It has a lot of elements of Psychedelic Downtempo and Psy Dub. It's not Psytrance or "classic" Trance per see but it's linked to. But I think I understand why you think it shouldn't be there for "The Monkey Puzzle" and "Kataphasis", maybe it's because the definition is too restrictive ? Because, in fact, to be Natural Trance you just have to blend any style of Psychedelic Trance (except Suomi and Experimental), or even "classic" Trance, with any kind of music with conventional instruments.

- I didn't understood your point on the 
dark/luminous argument of forest psytrance. The Dark/Luminous which I was talking about were about atmosphere. Once again I think there's nothing wrong here. The part of my pdf explains how much the forest style can be dark to luminous. 100% dark/0% luminous to 25% dark/75% luminous. I listened to Imaginary Sight and you're right: it's very luminous. But for me it's not 0% dark/100% luminous. It's more on 25% dark/75% luminous. In fact I think forest can't be and never been 0% dark/100% luminous, but maybe it's a matter of point of view. And I listened a lot Hux Flux and maybe I'm wrong again but Hux Flux is not Forest :huh:

- about Proto-Goa section : it's not only Trance, it's all the kind of genres/artists/albums/tracks, even those that are not electronic, who has been the most close to Old School Goa and influent for her creation. To my mind, Ozric has a way to be psychedelic that has been influent and kind of close to some way to be psychedelic in Old School Goa.

Anyone else has a different point or the same point ?

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Oopie    150
11 hours ago, Lightforce said:

- I didn't understood your point on the dark/luminous argument of forest psytrance. The Dark/Luminous which I was talking about were about atmosphere. Once again I think there's nothing wrong here. The part of my pdf explains how much the forest style can be dark to luminous. 100% dark/0% luminous to 25% dark/75% luminous. I listened to Imaginary Sight and you're right: it's very luminous. But for me it's not 0% dark/100% luminous. It's more on 25% dark/75% luminous. In fact I think forest can't be and never been 0% dark/100% luminous, but maybe it's a matter of point of view. And I listened a lot Hux Flux and maybe I'm wrong again but Hux Flux is not Forest :huh:

- about Proto-Goa section : it's not only Trance, it's all the kind of genres/artists/albums/tracks, even those that are not electronic, who has been the most close to Old School Goa and influent for her creation. To my mind, Ozric has a way to be psychedelic that has been influent and kind of close to some way to be psychedelic in Old School Goa.

Anyone else has a different point or the same point ?

Hey I agree that forest is never 100% luminous, yet on the chart you represented the line shows it would differ from 100% dark to 50/50 dark/luminous. Or is it not? 

I would agree the recent Hux Flux isn't forest, the stuff he was churning out for the past few years. But the old stuff! He's one of the guys who were there to invent the whole thing with his 'Cryptic Crunch' album. The last really great forest track he made is in my books 'Post 100' from 2006. 

I do agree with Pauli Ozrics aren't Proto-Goa. It's easy to drag them into discussion because of the obvious Eat Static connection. Then again you could as easily say many acid house/techno tracks from the 1980s are Proto-Goa in such context. But they aren't. Proto-Goa is somewhat precise style with obvious goa melody/bassline, usually just lacking more serious psychedelic soundscape. A lot of it is released on 12" records on Belgian/German labels and it takes dedication to know this music. 

Here's a couple examples:

 

 

 

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Lightforce    47
On 6/30/2018 at 10:26 AM, Oopie said:

Hey I agree that forest is never 100% luminous, yet on the chart you represented the line shows it would differ from 100% dark to 50/50 dark/luminous. Or is it not? 

I would agree the recent Hux Flux isn't forest, the stuff he was churning out for the past few years. But the old stuff! He's one of the guys who were there to invent the whole thing with his 'Cryptic Crunch' album. The last really great forest track he made is in my books 'Post 100' from 2006. 

I do agree with Pauli Ozrics aren't Proto-Goa. It's easy to drag them into discussion because of the obvious Eat Static connection. Then again you could as easily say many acid house/techno tracks from the 1980s are Proto-Goa in such context. But they aren't. Proto-Goa is somewhat precise style with obvious goa melody/bassline, usually just lacking more serious psychedelic soundscape. A lot of it is released on 12" records on Belgian/German labels and it takes dedication to know this music.

- Okay, my memory played tricks on me. You're right about the dark/luminous perception, I'll correct that and increase the possibility of the forest to 25% dark/75% luminous.

- I know all the albums of Hux Flux, including Cryptic Crunch. I listened it again in the meantime. It has a forest side but also a small Twilight one at some moments so I think I still shouldn't include it in forest.

- After your explainations it's ok for remove Ozric from the Proto-Goa section and thanks for your examples I think I'll take "New Life, New Civilization" instead.

Thank you and thanks Paul Eye too for taking the time for these points :)

And you know what ? This pdf will celebrate its 50th update :D

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Lightforce    47

Update of the PDF, you can download the new version.

 

Here is the list of changes that have been made:

 

- correction about the "Dark/Luminous" amount in the Forest style (page 74)

- album replacement in the "Proto-Goa" page of the "Bonus" section

- addition of a version number on the first page at the top left

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Paul Eye    436
On 6/30/2018 at 12:11 AM, Lightforce said:

- for "The Monkey Puzzle", it has its place in Natural Trance and in a perfect way. I don't understand why it shoudn't be there. Taken on their bandcamp : "Tamara Kazziha – Vocals and Violin, Ralph Stokes – Guitar, Andy Strong – Clarinet, Ian, Gibb – Bass, David French – Drums, Andrew Clark – Percussion and FX". Furthermore, it has a lots of Psyprog elements. So it fits this category. Nothing wrong here to my mind :)

for "Kataphasis", same : it has its place in Natural Trance. It has a lot of elements for Psychedelic Downtempo and Psy Dub. It's not Psytrance or "classic" Trance per see but it's linked to. But I think I understand why you think it shouldn't be there for "The Monkey Puzzle" and "Kataphasis", maybe it's because the definition is too restrictive ? Because, in fact, to be Natural Trance you just have to blend any style of Psychedelic Trance (except Suomi and Experimental), or even "classic" Trance, with any kind of music with conventional instruments.

Yeah, that was my main concern. Both those albums are psychedelia (played) with real instruments and synths, but I wouldn't call either of them any form of "trance". Would you add Ott & The All-Seeing I to that category, based on the downtempo/psydub aspect and that they play Ott's music live with a band?

I'd probably rather add something (early) by Star Sounds Orchestra to the Natural Trance category, but even that might be pushing it a bit :)

Or maybe something with a more obvious trance vibe from the "organic" section at Ektoplazm: http://www.ektoplazm.com/style/organic

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Lightforce    47
On 7/1/2018 at 5:24 PM, Paul Eye said:

Yeah, that was my main concern. Both those albums are psychedelia (played) with real instruments and synths, but I wouldn't call either of them any form of "trance". Would you add Ott & The All-Seeing I to that category, based on the downtempo/psydub aspect and that they play Ott's music live with a band?

Yes I would, but only if their "studio" album was done in such way too :)

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Lightforce    47

Update of the PDF, you can download the new version.

 

Here is the list of changes that have been made:

 

- add "Deep Trance", "Goa Ambient" and "Psy Dub" in the albums set as examples in the definition of Psybient

120a.jpg

18d5.jpg

Tell me if you see something wrong to your eyes here and explain me why :)

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