The big goa-evolution topic

[Anoebis]

After some other topics here, where you have the typical old vs new discussions, I was wondering what the general idea about it is. Should goa-trance stay exactly the same as in 96-98 or should there be a constant evolution?

So, in my opinion. The main thing is the music of course. And the musical structure (psychedelic 4/4 dance music with melodies & acid sounds) should stay the same for sure. But, as the world and the public is constantly changing, I think it is logic that the music is changing and evolving too. if you listen to modern goa-releases it is true there are some differences compared to 96. The biggest imo is the bigger emphasis on melodies (this is luckely changing a little) and the sound quality/mastering which is more modern. This is logic of course, as the public changed, and they are mostly used to Full On and Progressive on parties.

So, I think in the end, the evolution is/was always there, and it was so slow, that the difference is only clear a few years. Because, if you compare a modern Suntrip cd with most melodic goa cds from the 90s, there is a sound difference for sure. (take Ra for example).

So conclusion. I think it is good this way, as we prove to be a scene that is alive (!!) and like this new, young people will discover the music and fall in love with it. If goa-trance was pure static, I think extinction was the only possible outcome.

[Scandinasia]

Evolution is a blessing.

This topic is interesting, because in my case, I wouldn't have Fallen in love with Goa 604 without the Newschool trend. I started to get interested in trance music 3 or 4 years ago ( I was 18 yo ), and I enjoyed a few oldschool goa songs by the time, but it is the newschool that really got me into it, and even today I have difficulties to listening to pieces of the Golden Era.

Why is that ?

According to me, the major difference between Old and Newschool is that there have been an oniric shift between the two periods. Let me explain.

 

Oldschool is much more psychedelic, and have a lot to do with Science-Fiction. Moreover, it's a music that was really made for the dancefloor, since people used to make a lot more of parties by the time (they were bigger, ans it is a big social phenomenon of the 90's).

 

But Newschool is actually much more dreamy, deals more with Fantasy than Science-Fiction, and is really better for home-listening. As a young person, I like it more, because my generation is more used to be entertained at home while alone or in small groups. And the mental images conveyed by Newschool fits more to my culture than the Oldschool ones. Oldschool is more funky, more fun. But what I like is a music that allows me to build a story upon it, a story about vast landscapes and epic characters (like nuskool). Oldschool feels too urban, while Newschool is much more aerial as well.

 

I am then an example of how my generation can get into Goa through Newchool.

 

I think by the way that the first album who illustrâtes that oniric shift is Code Eternity by Asura (released in 2001).

 

Between Nuskool and Oldschool, it's the same vibration, but not the same energy. Or the same energy but not the same vibration. Whatever, it just fits more the contemporary world, and I praise this evolution.

[Lemmiwinks]

very interesting topic!

 

The main problem IMO is that the definition of what is goa is ever-more narrower as the years go by. Early day it was just trance, PERIOD, thus there was HUGE room for evolution since the definition of trance was extremely broad, just take a look on very old trance complilation's tracklist, various artists, some of which wouldn't even be considered trance at all were on there. Then came the initial split between "normal" trance and goa, then goa in its turn subdivided more and more until the dozen-or-so substyles that we have today.

 

The problem is that, in order to have your music called "goa" these days, artists are forced to abide by some very strict and limiting rules compared to back in the days, obviously when an artist has to start thinking in terms of "oh wait, I need to have this and this and this in my track or it won't be a goa track", creativity is greatly impaired and you end up with a scene where everything seems to be a copy of everything else. I don't think there's room today for acts like Quirk, Sandman, Shaolin Wooden Men or... Yamabikaya(?) Something as revolutionary as Pleidaians - IFO was back in its time simply wouldn't get a record deal these days IMO. The last artist to take goatrance to new uncharted territories was Ka-Sol IMO, and we all know how hard it was for him to get a record deal.

 

Of course, I am also aware that money is a very important factor here, the days when dread-wearing hippies released a few tracks on vinyl and made more money than a CEO are certainly long-gone, I can definately understand an artist would think twice before dedicating himself to a narrow scene which would mean that he'd also need a day-job just to put food on the table (thinking of Ketzhal here).

 

So for me, although goatrance will always have a special place in my heart, the scene is pretty much dead in terms of evolution (it has been YEARS since I haven't heard a new release that would challenge my top 20 goa tracks ever list). Worst part is that I don't really think there's a remedy to this, it is simply that times have changed and one has to live with their time (not meaning that I won't enjoy dancing my ass off at a goa party every now and then )

[Scandinasia]

If you allow me to disagree with you, I will discuss about your idea that the definition of Goa Trance is getting narrower.

 

This was obviously true during the last decade.

Because when Nuskool producers emerged, they couldn't make it otherwise. Their purpose was to re-affirm the traditionnal psychedelic sound, and getting too innovative would have betrayed their goal, which was to sound Goa compared to modern psy-producers.

 

But within the last few years, now that the basis of Neo Goa scene has been firmly settled, their is room enough for innovation, and IMO the definition of Goa Trance is getting larger again.

 

With releases like Mind Rewind or Tribal Encore, a little of the glory past have been restored, because we were recalled that one could make Goa Trance with the distorted industrial sounds inherited from EBM, techno, etc.

 

Several styles of Goa trance, like Dark Goa, are being restored, wich diversifies Neo Goa.

And what is interesting with Dark Goa is that there is actually two kinds of dark neo goa :

_old school-like dark goa (inspired by UX, Darshan, etc.)

_dark Goa inspired by modern psy-trance

 

An example of innovation within Goa Trance is the developpement, this very year, of a very particular style : the Darkpsy basslined Goa Trance, with tracks such as :

 

Laboratory X and RDM - Kenaz

E-Mantra - Liquid Frequencies

Fractal Vivisection - Molecular Instability

 

 

A few months ago, I wouldn't have recognized this as Goa Trance. Today I do.

 

There are also fusions of Goa Trance with progressive psy, Forest, etc.

 

It's getting more creative out there.

[Djuna]

I agree with Lemmiwinks, in the last decade there's very little evolution musically, while in the 90's you could almost speak about a certain avant-garde in the genre, which challenged and changed the borders. There's not much left of that. I think (think) that's mostly because most producers right now started producing with goa, and don't have a varied background in terms of other styles and genres and thus don't really have a 'creative luggage'. 90% of the music being made today is a substyle of a subgenre: melodic 4/4 goa trance. Also, it's the first time that people are getting to know goa trance through newschool, which is already a narrowed down genre. So their view on goa is already probably not as wide as the genre actually was.

[Ormion]

The problem I have (or at least I had since things are getting better) with new school Goa is that most artists decided to take the most obvious characteristics of Goa (eastern melodies, multiple layers etc.) and ignore all the others.

Then tracks that break that formula are not even considered Goa today. To be more specific the field of Goa trance today is very narrow. It's like we erased all the progress and started over.

Old school used to be the exact opposite. Stuff like Psychaos, Phreaky, Pleiadians, Elixir etc. If these artists released their music today I'm pretty sure someone would call them not-goa because they don't have the above characteristics.

 

Like I said many times before what I don't like from new school Goa are:

-Too much floatness. Waaayyyy too much. Pads everywhere, multiple uninteresting morning mellow melodies.

-Not enough dark Goa artists (although that's changing).

-Many eastern melodies.

-Many nitzhonot influenced tracks.

 

 

Thankfully things are getting better. The last two years I heard a lot of edgy, darker artists that focus on strong melodies instead of floaty atmospheres. Even Suntrip which almost exclusively focus on morning Goa (Ka-Sol excluded) released Blacklight Moments which was by far IMO their best compilation.

 

 

Finally what Goa trance envolved sound like? There's only one answer. Pleidians-Family Of Light.

[Penzoline]

Good posts and I totally agree with ormion and I think VA - Erta Alé as a whole showed us this darker more psychedelic side is still alive, we just need more people pushing for it. Maybe asking psytrance producers to try this type of goa, you know, lay off the sharp kicks and use acid. Is that so hard?

 

As far as the morning sound, I guess it had to start somewhere. The other psytrance styles were generally more darker post-2000 like darkspy so I guess people wanted to keep it more uplifting and melodic(?). The evolution is surely noticeable but it just spread out to many different genres which themselves kind of ended up generally stagnating - probably indeed because of pigeonholing the genre they were supposed to play. Though there is always an artist or an album that changes the situation with a release that tries new things, which is indeed evolution, but it doesn't happen frequently enough as has been mentioned - thus the genres seem to stagnate. Same with modern goa, it's great and getting super refined with the styles we got going, but it needs darker and more psychedelic releases to balance the playing field. We just don't seem to have enough labels/artists that want to release/make it!

 

Also imo these are also absolutely evolution of goa even though they don't fit the majority releases of what we (or just I) call goa. So what we consider goa still has broad range through and through, but you really have to dig deep to find the other styles of it in releases that aren't neccesarily classified as goa. Taking modern psytrance and removing the plastic ultra sharp and precise sound makes a massive difference.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFVku4jWI50

 

 

[Martian Arts]

After some other topics here, where you have the typical old vs new discussions, I was wondering what the general idea about it is. Should goa-trance stay exactly the same as in 96-98 or should there be a constant evolution?

 

 

The answer for me, is both.

Just like rock music and the fact that a lot of new rock music has the old sound, production, simple riffs, sometimes muddy sound, cause that was part of the old sound, and young people like it because it has that vibe, for me it is perfectly fine that some people would like to have the old sound and it is a credible artistic choice that they are free to make.

 

It should also evolve. The essence of a genre like that, is that it is waveforms created at the cutting edge of the technology availlable. Producers in the 90s where way ahead of their time in many aspects, it was a characteristic trade of Goa trance. They would dive deep into sound design and make quircky sounds and sequence them in such a way that created a vibe that had people having religious experiences on dancefloors across the globe. It was NOT just a lot of leads with 4-5 arp parts playing on top of each other with big pads underneath. It was a lot more involved, to my ears anyway.

 

As a person who started partying and buying records in 1994 and as far as what you guys call "neo"goa (I just call it Goa Trance that just happend to be created, recently), I have yet to hear something that has the vibe that the old tracks had. I have yet to hear something that I am going to listen to, more than once.

Granted its a personal taste thing as I was not into tunes that had lots of (high pitched) melodies back in the 90s either and I despised and still despise, nitzho... the new stuff I hear today is crammed with melodies, no sci-fi, too much fluffy morning melodies and even the stuff that some people call "dark" just sounds too obvious and plain cheesy to me. But again this is not a general statement, its my personal view on what I hear and what I feel when I hear it.

Having said that, I just click on the od link people post here and on facebook, so everything I say I say as someone who is not actively following the current output of new artists that make this kind of music.

 

Regarding new prog and dark. I am also not actively following it, again I just click the odd link and happen to be on a dancefloor at a forest in Russia, or a club in Germany or a beach in Goa and listen to what people, that like these genres, play. I feel no connection with it. Yes people consider them to be under the psy-trance "umbrella", but for me its not related to it, far from it actually. Prog, dark...etc are their own individual genres and its the stuff that just isn't my cup of tea.

 

Anyways, regardless of what is being said here, the music is evolving and at the same time some people do make a concious choice of creating the old sound, today.

Its all good to me as long as people make what makes them happy in the studio.

[Martian Arts]

P.S. This is the opinion of a somewhat "jaded" psy-trance music lover, that has been in this thing for two decades.

I do realise that the younger generations, came to love this music, listening to completetly different styles than what MWNN was making in 1994 and of course, that is fair enough.

[HappyHorse]

Good posts and I totally agree with ormion and I think VA - Erta Alé as a whole showed us this darker more psychedelic side is still alive, we just need more people pushing for it. Maybe asking psytrance producers to try this type of goa, you know, lay off the sharp kicks and use acid. Is that so hard?

 

Busy and working on it

[BraneFreeze]

The 4/4 dance music structure is a real straitjacket. I prefer trippy, psychedelic music with more rhythmic variety (eg, Slackbaba). I'll always enjoy goa, but it's time to move on to more challenging music.

[Scandinasia]

That super track from Cybernetika quoted hereabove could be easily considered as Goa Trance.

If this is not considered as a piece of 604, then our scene suffers from rigidity.

 

But as Penzoline said, there are some psychedelic products that truly are a continuation of Goa Trance, with just sharper sounds. The most eloquent artist who embodies this trend must be Electrypnose. His first album, Brain Stretching, contains pieces of what can be called post-Goa trance. Goa sonorities, with psy-trance engineering. He continued Goa Trance in the straight line of the 90's with contemporary sounds. But to me it's not actually Goa Trance. The difference between Goa Trance and Psytrance songs that incorporates Goa sounds dwells, according to me, in the way the music reacts with the uncounscious mind. Psytrance doesn't put in the same mood as Goa Trance, and this criterium makes me distinguish both styles.

 

Here, I have this Goa mood with Cybernetika and Re-Horakthy. Not with Electrypnose, Hypnoxock (or just a little bit) and Fragletrollet, that make me think in Post-Goa Trance.

[Richpa]

I feel happy to actually have an pleasure to enjoy in unreleased Goa folder of Cybernetika.

Seriously. Nowdays Goa scene needs more balance, a balance between the positive and 'negative' momentum.

 

What is negative?

Dirty, raw, experimental, acid-filled stuff without boundaries and rules, at least in my case that is something that I consider as negative.

[Anoebis]

I think the dark side gets some attention already... Blackstarrfinale like stuff, Anjuna Records, some DAT Records,... And more will be coming (we will release Shakta soon & a KOB album in the future too) But ok, we are more focused on morning stuff for sure

As for the evolution of goa, more opinions? Good or bad? (as I don't want this to be blabla topic nr 35 with old vs new goa)

[Shpongled247]

Nice topic

 

I think you are right in the way it has evolved to an extent. But also, I see everything coming back around full circle, in the future as everything does.

 

What I mean is people returning again to "lo fi" styled productions and tribal based goa. And yeah the darker stuff.

 

There has already been a bit of it, not so much on Suntrip but that's fine with me hah.

 

I think it must be hard for a goa artist these days, trying to maybe capture the spirit of their old favourites while still sounding modern and relevant.

 

IMO, that is what Suntrip has done best, made goa relevant again. And that is a great thing for its continued evolution.

 

You can't please everyone, but I've definitely been happy with the way goa has evolved in the last ten years.

[Manuser]

Great point Lemmiwinks.

 

Back then you could have the track Hallucinogen - Snakey shaker together with Pleiadians - Asterope in the same compilation

http://www.discogs.com/Various-A-Taste-Of-Dragonfly-Volume-3/release/121849

 

Today it's impossible.

 

Back then one would say "my favourite track is Mahadeva"

Today one will say "my favourite artist is Filteria"

 

and "Mahadeva" sounds totally different to "Flying into the stars"

which specific Filteria track sounds different to the others?

 

I used to love compilations more than albums back then because of that, but now album or compilation doesn't matter, too much homogenization IMO.

Like said above there are exceptions of course like Mind rewind or Tribal encore. But Mind rewind contains lots of "old" tracks

 

Apart from that, yes modern goa is still great.

[Filteria]

Back then one would say "my favourite track is Mahadeva"Today one will say "my favourite artist is Filteria"and "Mahadeva" sounds totally different to "Flying into the stars"which specific Filteria track sounds different to the others?I used to love compilations more than albums back then because of that, but now album or compilation doesn't matter, too much homogenization IMO.Like said above there are exceptions of course like Mind rewind or Tribal encore. But Mind rewind contains lots of "old" tracks :DApart from that, yes modern goa is still great.

I would answer that Food Demons and night @ 12pm is totalt different and still on the same album. Life never sleeps is also very different from those.. And i dont know what the snuggling snail has incommon with those 3 tracks. Or compare filtertraces with lost in the wild. But ofcourse our perception differs and that is what makes life wonderful

[Timofey]

Talking about music evolution, we have to understand that music is composed by human, according to this: music evolution = human evolution. There are two types of human evolution: physiological and psychological. Music is a product of human mentality, that's why we will focus on psychological evolution. How do a composer generates the music? His mind recombines memories. And then he records it with help of computer or other stuff.

So, the solution of music evolution consists in composers personality, in their versatility. Here is an example: imagine a musician. His favourites are Astral Projection and he only listens to their albums. What this musician's music would sound simular to? Of cource, there are factors like equipment, technical skills, habitat area, etc., that will add some unique character to his sound, but see the truth, nowhere to take the music information in the brain other from the memory of music and sounds we've ever heard. Similarly, we can not speak the language that we have never heard. Comparing musical interests of different artists (who like the same music), probably we will notice that they are alike in sound. Returning to the subject of the evolution of Goa Trance, I think, to make something new, we have to like all genres and listen to all entire music, but that our work remained at the same goa trance, we should love him more than anything.

[Manuser]

I would answer that Food Demons and night @ 12pm is totalt different and still on the same album. Life never sleeps is also very different from those.. And i dont know what the snuggling snail has incommon with those 3 tracks. Or compare filtertraces with lost in the wild. But ofcourse our perception differs and that is what makes life wonderful

I'll listen to these specific tracks again then i'm happy you mentionned Live never sleeps, my favourite track of yours!

[Guest The Hypnotic LFO Room]

I agree with Lemmiwinks, in the last decade there's very little evolution musically, while in the 90's you could almost speak about a certain avant-garde in the genre, which challenged and changed the borders. There's not much left of that. I think (think) that's mostly because most producers right now started producing with goa, and don't have a varied background in terms of other styles and genres and thus don't really have a 'creative luggage'. 90% of the music being made today is a substyle of a subgenre: melodic 4/4 goa trance. Also, it's the first time that people are getting to know goa trance through newschool, which is already a narrowed down genre. So their view on goa is already probably not as wide as the genre actually was.

 

+ 1000

 

When we started out making goatrance (not called goa at the time) our "back catalog" was from the 70's and 80's (At least in my case and many I know from those days). And by that we brought in a big catalog of inspiration from two decades of music. From the 70's we brought in the psychedelic rock and from the 80's we brought in the new polished synth pop also know as "New Wave" and experimental electronic music (Kraftwerk etc.) as well as the fast-rising European electronic music movement and not to forget Jean MIchel Jarre. We were also inspired from the just dying out Disco era and from early House and Techno from example Detroit and New York. This rich back catalog shaped what we all came to love so much. The Goa/psytrance music from the early 90's.

 

When I listen to todays' new goatrance and psytrance artists I usually do not hear much inspiration from outside the goa/psy cirquit and in my opinion that is why there is so little evolution and so much music that sound the same. One good example are the in my opinion horrible "Machine gun" basslines in psytrance. To me they are proof that most new artists got a very limited or better put a very narrow inspiration source only found within the psy/goa cirquit.

 

It's kind of like inbred http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding At one point the children become deformed or even crazy.

 

In my opinion what this scene needs is a fresh wind of artists coming from outside the cirquit to bring in other ideas and inspiration sources than Astral, Etnica and Transwave..