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Fantastic tracks ruined by mastering/mixing.


Penzoline

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That's simply nitpicking. You know what I mean

And... Adrenalin Drum was not goa. When we released filteria (nov 2004) Tranceform Records released its last music already half a year before. Kagdila was probably the only other label, sometimes releasing goa. So specially for you I will make an addition: "There were 2 other goa releases in a whole year"

 

 

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@ Djuna: well, the thing is, I am not 20 anymore, in a time where we were the only goa-freaks left in the world (luckely). When we started suntrip, there was NO other goa label left. So, it's logical we had to look to the past etc... In the last 5 years, a lot changed. And with that change, also my view on the scene. Back then, my view on the scene was Belgium. Now it is global. Also, the growth of the label had a serious influence, and a dynamic label needs to adapt somehow to it's surrounding. As said. One thing is sure for me. The music, and more particularely goa-trance, is my "mission". But, to bring this music to a serious audience on big festivals, you need to adapt a little to what is happening today. Not too much of course, and you know I still play enough 90s music in between, but a little. YES. Compare Filteria 2004 and today. I think the sound difference is clear and huge. That is the unstoppable evolution I'm talking about. And I'm glad we managed to keep goa-trance alive, adapted to today's standards! (with the clear important thing, that goa-trance is STILL goa-trance) :)

 

 

 

Writing notes and "music knowledge" is not necessary to be a good artist... There are MANY famous examples of guitarists and classical music guys who didn't know a shit about notes and stuff... They just had a musical hearing and made the most amazing compositions. I also know of some famous respected classic goa guys, they are unawhere of that...

Actually it is. Now I've run 3-4 professional venues, worked as a CEO for 2 punk/metal labels as well as having worked back stage for a number of international bands (actually work on the last tour of a international Aussie rock legend band last time they were here, just as a bit of a roadie during their Melbourne stint). Also with a USA pop punk band before they huge in the mid-late 90's.

 

I can tell you there is a huge difference between music made by people who have actual musical knowledge & those that don't. Now this isn't what this thread is about but after 25+ years in the music industry, I can tell you clearly that I have seen many instances where sadly marketing & hype have been used to hide musical failings when those who actually made great music were not "marketable" & fell to the wayside. It happened/happens in this scene as well. I know many wonderful Goa/Psy musicians from the 90's that made AP, Transwave, Etnica etc. sound rubbish but were deemed unmarketable and so these ppl moved on to scenes that they could get work in such as house/techno or songwriting/session work.

 

I can also tell a number of artists on Suntrip for example that obviously have wonderful technical knowledge that makes their "music" sound great but structurally/melodically are rubbish.

 

I'm not a troll, I'm being honest. I know because when I ran & labels I did exactly the same thing. Sign up & market what sells, even if the music isn't great. I even put together bands to play other peoples music because the original musician wasn't marketable. It's how the industry ran & runs.

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I know many wonderful Goa/Psy musicians from the 90's that made AP, Transwave, Etnica etc. sound rubbish but were deemed unmarketable and so these ppl moved on...

I liked your post until this part which seems weird counting we're talking "music knowledge" and lack of it. In Etnica at least Andrea Rizzo was classically trained person. Transwave and AP also have made some of the most memorable tracks counting all electronic music... I don't know what would that "extra knowledge" you seem to miss in their sound.

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I liked your post until this part which seems weird counting we're talking "music knowledge" and lack of it. In Etnica at least Andrea Rizzo was classically trained person. Transwave and AP also have made some of the most memorable tracks counting all electronic music... I don't know what would that "extra knowledge" you seem to miss in their sound.

I must apologise as my typing/writing style is a bit confusiing at times. By this point i had moved off topic quite a lot and was talking about how i find it sad that the ability to sell the music sometimes comes first over the quality of music.

 

It was very off topic & I apolgise for that.

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Guest The Hypnotic LFO Room

Too many releases has poor mastering. Today it's all about the "Loudness War" and not about proper quality mastering (with some exceptions). Avatar records in Israel totally ruined my debut album "Dance for the Celestial Beings" by re-releasing the CD + unreleased tracks with a very very poor mastering that distorted the whole CD. They jumped on the "Loudness War" bandwagon and failed. Sadly I could do nothing to prevent it.

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@ Djuna: well, the thing is, I am not 20 anymore, in a time where we were the only goa-freaks left in the world (luckely). When we started suntrip, there was NO other goa label left. So, it's logical we had to look to the past etc... In the last 5 years, a lot changed. And with that change, also my view on the scene. Back then, my view on the scene was Belgium. Now it is global. Also, the growth of the label had a serious influence, and a dynamic label needs to adapt somehow to it's surrounding. As said. One thing is sure for me. The music, and more particularely goa-trance, is my "mission". But, to bring this music to a serious audience on big festivals, you need to adapt a little to what is happening today. Not too much of course, and you know I still play enough 90s music in between, but a little. YES. Compare Filteria 2004 and today. I think the sound difference is clear and huge. That is the unstoppable evolution I'm talking about. And I'm glad we managed to keep goa-trance alive, adapted to today's standards! (with the clear important thing, that goa-trance is STILL goa-trance) :)

 

I don't understand how that is a proper reaction to my post actually :P . I just used the same arguments you use, but in a different context, to try to show you how irrelevant I think they sound.

There's no need to adapt your music to "a serious audience on big festivals" like that, it especially doesn't make any sense if you think that brickwall limiting is a key to that.

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I'm really glad of the devleopment in whatever Schuldt is doing since Blacklight Moments. Maybe he suddenly realised the music does not need to be so flat sounding? I spent the last month listening to every one of the Suntrip compilation & can only say the difference is hug from the B.M compilation onwards. It really smack your ears like WOW! OMG this sounds amazing compared to any of the rest.

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artifact303 - feelings has such a terrible mix, and its such a great track, somebody should like me should rework it to make it sound just perfect! :P

va atom smasher is also ruined mastering, and many more of course, suncokreti for one... mindsphere nolax etc etc

 

ive been learning home mastering since 2007 and its only now im starting to understand what an immense job it is to get each track just as perfect as the next! it all starts right from the very first sound of the song on the computer or hardware its being made on. decent mixing is imperative for a decent mastering, and decently mixed songs, don't really need mastering! in the end there's so much options possible in audio it becomes somewhat of a guessing game to which techniques are going to give the best end result and half of it is subject to personal taste... all lot can be done in post-processing depending on the purity of the source material.

i can easily understand 4cn mastering feels formulaic and plastic since i bet he relies more on what he sees on his displays and hears through his standard set of speakers, than really taking the time to try all possible solutions and sit back and think about it, if you're mastering a ton of music like that you simply cant take the time for each release to get it perfect. it sounds loud and clear but not dynamically balanced or very coherent, something i really try to achieve in my mastering! in 4cn mastering you can clearly hear the bass separated from the mid, and the highs separated from the mid, and also the big volume differences between these three, something which just sounds unnatural to me... probably he's running every track through the same izotope preset :P just kidding
mastering for me is more about enhancing the whole spectrum of a track rather than blowing up parts of it to make it sound loud or big, what you want to achieve is a more pronounced dynamic than the original mix.

i would say for a full album you need at least a week and you're working on it 8 hours a day. it takes a lot of time to compare and get each sound just perfect! last time i mastered something for neogoa it took me two damn months for only 6 tracks and im still not 100% happy with the end result for all tracks! so no, mastering is not easy and yes its easy to slip even a little if you're not careful enough or want to be too fast with it!

btw soon im hitting 100k downloads for stryder mastering (from neogoa releases on ektoplazm), expect a thank you mix or something! :P

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i would say for a full album you need at least a week and you're working on it 8 hours a day. it takes a lot of time to compare and get each sound just perfect! last time i mastered something for neogoa it took me two damn months for only 6 tracks and im still not 100% happy with the end result for all tracks! so no, mastering is not easy and yes its easy to slip even a little if you're not careful enough or want to be too fast with it!

 

btw soon im hitting 100k downloads for stryder mastering (from neogoa releases on ektoplazm), expect a thank you mix or something! :P

 

 

Well that's true mate, we had like 5 different versions for the upcoming EP's? I'm not some kind of perfectionist when it comes to mastering, and I won't take any part in things that I don't understand or study, but I can feel the input of the mastering engeener when I get the complete product. Luckly, couple of DJs are getting their Neogoa promos and they're doing a testing for us on bigger PA's and they send me feedback afterwards about our music and how it sounds. So far we didn't have any bigger complains about Neogoa mastering, especially not from the DJ's who are doing all the testing and the real job in front of the crowd.

 

I have been in situations to work with more skilled artists who knows how to prepare the decent mixdown, and on the other side with the artists who likes to give their own input when it comes to sound and feel of the track itself, and we usually get some extract with some limiters and home-made mastering, which isn't something that I or my mastering engeeners prefer. I understand that each artist likes to have some kind of his own sound. Some of them likes it polished, others likes to have it more raw and dirty. A matter of opinion and a taste I guess, but somehow they all forgot that these tracks won't be only for home listening and when it comes to Stryder or Deimos, they both pay attention to the details and how thoose tracks will sound on larger speakers, which is very important to me aswell.

 

Bottom line here is that the relationship between the artist and the mastering engeener is a crucial thing, especially if the artist isn't very skilled when it comes to mixdown, the mastering engeener will give him some advice and feedback how to prepare track and yet how to keep the atmosphere and the personal sound-style of the track. To be honest, Goa trance music in last couple of years is evolving in terms of mastering, not saying that because music sounds louder and clearer, but because you can get like different music from different artists and labels, and you won't feel that huge difference. Yes, there will be always misses like stuff from Suncokreti or Spiritual Rising, but overall, the mastering in Goa trance scene nowdays is good.

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Nice post Richpa.

 

Anyway, I kind of wish Tim Schuldt would come in this thread and drop some knowledge on people himself lol

 

Not sure why he is even being mentioned lol If anyone knows how to master goa trance it is him..

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  • 2 weeks later...

This one...

 

 

 

Wierd: I adore this track, and also the mastering, but at the same time I hate the mastereing.

It makes this track sound very warm, but at the same time some sounds just don't come trough.

It's the only track where I hate and like the mastering...wierd world :P

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The sound seperation is a must, goa needs to breathe, rather than be a big flat line of sounds mashed together.

 

ALL music needs to breathe. Brickwalling was a trap. A mistake. End of story.

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Alpha Circuit - Module Z was promising album ruined completely by lack of mastering, kicks are distorted beyond level of hardcore or jumpstyle music tolerances.

 

Then again, said artist was hyped in regards to Etnica as uncredited person who worked with them in the studio at some point, plus hes coming from Italy and Italians do know how to make quality goa trace :D!

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So I've beenistenjng to all my tunes from Active Meditation label this week & I'm currently on Mindwar 2. Now this one is mastered by label own himsel Mr Demoniac Insomniac. I'm not sure what he did but the volum is a lot lower & the music seems to really breathe and us the space compared to the earlier releases which seem in comparison obnoxiously load and too in your face. It's exactly what if find to be the problem in most modern psy. I guess it's because most are produced for party situations and not to listen at home but I have to say I really enjoy Mr Insomniacs efforts to make the music breathe. It's fresh sounding.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have to bump this since I bought Limitless Universal Waves.

http://www.discogs.com/Various-Limitless-Universal-Waves/release/5771927

Worst mastering ever.

+1 - winner

Not to mention quality control. Sorry to say that but I simply laughed listening to some tracks... :/

But there's also lot of interesting tracks, anyone can find someting good within those 3cds,

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  • 9 months later...

a recent paradox is lots of releases nowadays have a dance-floor oriented mastering

fair enough but why then release the music on a CD? many people like me couldnt care less about parties but listen to the music at home - isnt it what a CD is for?

 

By the way what happened to the release mentioned above universall waves? a shame

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Well, one of the misconceptions in dance oriented music about mastering is that a cd has to be mastered 'for the dancefloors', and this means - in that same line of thought - that it has to be compressed to a certain (harsh) level with barely any headroom, reducing the joy of actually listening to it at home (that's why I barely buy any newschool anymore), increasing listening fatigue, mastering every release almost the same way as any other release, ... It's a trend and a commercial way of thinking, it's less about the music. Though the tables are turning in the music industry globally, and more people are getting aware (see the recent articles that are online about Taylor Swift's latest album being louder than AC/DC), I guess it will take a bit longer in the goa scene.

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