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Theist or Atheist?


Panoptes
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Because someone must control the things to get the balance bad. There has to be some force to balance it out so that ithe level is even again. How does the bhuddism explain Karma? If it is not a person it must be a force that is respondant for karma.

thats not how karma works. in buddhism, karma is not something that directly affects your life now. your actions in this life will affect you in the next one. karma isnt some sort of immediate punishment/reward system. your example of having bad things happen to you if you do bad things is easily explained.

 

lets say joe is an ass hole, he treats people like shit all the time. one day joe notices that bad things keep happening to him...the simple explanation is that because joe is an ass hole and isnt very nice to people...people arent very nice to him in return.

 

its almost common knowledge that you get in return what you put out. if you are a positive person then you well get positive things back, if you are a negative person, youll get negative things back. theres nothing supernatural about it, its simply a function of life. if you are a caring person who helps people when they need it...then people will be more likely to help you when you need it. if you are cruel and unkind to people, then people will be more likely to be cruel and unkind to you.

 

that is not karma

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You talk such a bullshit man, that it seems you don`t read my posts and don`t thik before you right.

 

I said that when someone does bad things, something bad can happen to him, it does not have to be connected to people and mostly isn´t even connected to people. It is things that change or break or money the person looses, just because he said bad things or showed off. For example someone showing off with his car a lot, it is likely that parts will break after that and that has nothign to do with people returing bad things to him, you are really so simple. It can be some people doing bad things, but the people are people you don`t even know, so it is not just as simple as in your example. I tell you about my personal or some other people´s experiences.

 

For example you say, you have a lot of money but another person doesn`t - you may loose some money in the park

You say your computer is incredible, extremly fast and better than your friend ones, he has a lame shitcrap computer - The graphics card of your computer can break a few days or weeks after

You say your speakers are extremly loud and will impress your girl with them - The speakers will break just when you turn up the volume to impress your girl and you will be embarassed.

 

Such things happend so many times to people and I don`t really see coincidents here. It is not other people who brake the speakers or something like that, it is something else, maybe some higher force.

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karma is not something that directly affects your life now.

 

actually it is, as far as i know. to my knowledge karma in buddhism simply is the law of action and reaction, or causality. this includes an apple falling down due to gravity when you drop it, as well as your example with joe, as well as what we westeners commonly refer to as karma with a reward/punishment-system in the next life (supposedly caused by an imbalance in your "mind" [in lack for a better expression, those definitions tend to be complicated in buddhism]). the latter is something i do not follow and the former two are of course obvious.

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I personally don't believe in the stuff you wrote above (stuff breaking because of braging about it and what not). I don't have any evidence or hard facts to not believe it but how I percieve the world this is not how it is for me. I do agree that sometimes you get what you sow but I also see a lot of people get away with shitloads of bad stuff so it's not like an universal rule for me. I als don't believe in a higher deity that cares what you personally do on a daily basis. Mainly becuase it does not make any sense for my personal understandig of the world that there should be a deity caring about stuff like that while it does not seem to care about the bigger stuff going wrong in the world like westerners getting all the benefits and letting other countries pay for it (which is a very, very recuded explanation of what is going on in the world but this thread is not about politics so I'm not getting into it).

 

I'm aware that just because I don't believe in something it does not have to mean it really doesn't exist but that's the point about religion and spiritiuality, it's not about knowing but about believing and I just can't believe in a god or even a deity like that.

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there is nothing religion provides humanity that humanity couldnt provide for itself, and probably do a better job of it. on the flip side of that religion is directly responsible for good people doing horrible things. it has never made horrible people do good things.

In Philosophy this is called the manipulation of truth... Because you are not objective. You think humans are pure good, religion is bad... I can switch this sentence 100%: and for me that is even closer to reality. The human nature of humans is selfish and not really caring... It's religions that started to put that ideal into humans thanks to certain people who saw the importance of that (like Jesus, Buddha,...).

 

I can't believe you say Francis would have done the same without religion. It is simply untrue. Read his personal letters/books, you'll see... :)

 

For me, humans are humans and will do a lot of BAD things. Religion are giving guidelines to be a better human being. It's the people's choice what they do with it. Of course many fail (we are still humans) but many do NOT fail, and for some reason we never see them on tv etc :s

 

To finish: don't forget the European/American law are based on Christian ideals! The 10 commandments changed the world. Simple as that! And don't think these are universal laws, because in Papua New Guinea, Samoa, Amazone and certain Muslim countries that didn't get in touch with Christianity or Buddhism have TOTAL different laws. Stoning, blood-revenge, even getting raped the night before you are married...

 

While studying about religions your eyes will go open, if you want I can give you a lot of interesting books :)

 

 

 

 

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yes of course. but as you say, that's not unique for christianity but rather universal for all religions and also valid for non-religious people or people acting independently of their religious beliefs.

 

also on the topic of what christianity has done for medicine: their caring for the sick (which led to the development of hospitals) of course was admirable and a great thing, but there's also the question of how people were thinking about diseases and the theories behind that. before christianity spread in europe, the greeks and romans made many advances in this field, had their own (for the first time in history non-supernatural, but of course also flawed theories on how disease works; the greek medicine also was sort of a template for some of the theories we now know as traditional-"asian"-medicines). but after christianity had become the dominant religion, the advances in medicine were mainly made outside of europe, mainly because the church-backed belief at the time was that diseases are either god's retribution for your sins or god testing you; also that the only way to get cured was through jesus and prayer, instead of taking the appropriate plant drugs that had been known to be effective for that kind of illness before. europe only started making advances in medicine again when we re-imported the ancient (roman and greek-based) scriptures from the arabic world a few hundred years later.

i think that our medicine would be a lot more advanced by now, if we had stuck with the roman gods ;)

For the first part, read above... I don't think these are universal things... people want to believe that to cut themselve lose from religion, but religion is the base for our culture for thousands of years, you can't simply deny that...

 

Second thing: Romans and taking care of diseases: well, read about Galenus. He was the best "doctor" they had... And he is respsonsible for that fact millions of people died! He had the theory of the 4 body fluids... And medieval people followed him for a long time.

 

Most anthropologists even think we are into a higher level because of Christianity. It's not a coincedance the "top-"countries in the world concerning science etc are Christian countries. Since 1200 monastries were thé place for wisdom... And because of a more and more critical mind, they started to search for truth. This search was the beginning of humanism. Untill 18th century 95% of all super smart inventions were done by monks or religious people... Don't forget that! Afterwards it became less, but still a relatively big amount of people... And yes, you had a church that said certain things were wrong... But those conservative guys couldn't fight reality... (and to make things clear, they were fighting themselves... Guys like Copernicus were priests!)

 

What you said is the most common thing people THINK about medieval times. They were stupid and surpressed by a Catholic moloch-church. But the truth is far different... As a medievist (I studied extra about medieval times) I can only say... Read, read and read more... So you'll see the negative view on medieval times is still a renaissance thing! Middle Ages... Between the 2 "smart" ages... Oh come on, the basis of our culture was exactly there!

 

 

 

 

 

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Just wondering did you major in history? I've been thinking about getting into history for college and maybe teaching it. (I realize that this may not be related to the current discussion and sorry for any problems).

I actually studied master in archeology... With a focus on middle ages. I ended up teaching history & religion because it was really uncertain to do excavations... And also I have much more free time now :)

 

So, go for it :)

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For the first part, read above... I don't think these are universal things... people want to believe that to cut themselve lose from religion, but religion is the base for our culture for thousands of years, you can't simply deny that...

 

Second thing: Romans and taking care of diseases: well, read about Galenus. He was the best "doctor" they had... And he is respsonsible for that fact millions of people died! He had the theory of the 4 body fluids... And medieval people followed him for a long time.

 

Most anthropologists even think we are into a higher level because of Christianity. It's not a coincedance the "top-"countries in the world concerning science etc are Christian countries. Since 1200 monastries were thé place for wisdom... And because of a more and more critical mind, they started to search for truth. This search was the beginning of humanism. Untill 18th century 95% of all super smart inventions were done by monks or religious people... Don't forget that! Afterwards it became less, but still a relatively big amount of people... And yes, you had a church that said certain things were wrong... But those conservative guys couldn't fight reality... (and to make things clear, they were fighting themselves... Guys like Copernicus were priests!)

 

What you said is the most common thing people THINK about medieval times. They were stupid and surpressed by a Catholic moloch-church. But the truth is far different... As a medievist (I studied extra about medieval times) I can only say... Read, read and read more... So you'll see the negative view on medieval times is still a renaissance thing! Middle Ages... Between the 2 "smart" ages... Oh come on, the basis of our culture was exactly there!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Feel free to correct me but as far as I know nearly only or maybe even only noblemen and people who made it as pupils into an abby (or a similar church project) were even able to go to school and get an education. And also the noblemen were schooled by monks or similar people. Like that it's not exactly a surprise most inventions came from people from the religious circle. But copernicus and also other people like da vinci imho show hat they coped with the church and tried to not get the officials angry because they had to but actually were not too happy with some of the church's believes. Maybe I just don't know enough about that stuff so feel free to update me (and I'm not being ironic here).

 

The top countries today are mainly western countries (not only), as you say they are christian countries mainly. But well, the richness in these countries imho comes from the fact that especially Europe colonized and therefore imho also exploited other countries. Doesn't matter if we talk about slaves or other ressources that they claimed in the past but still do now. Nowadays it is a little different with not having colonies but just using cheap labor in third- ord second-world countriers to make cheap goods that can be sold with a big margin. No wonder you can push it far in science if you are able to get money on the costs of others.

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Feel free to correct me but as far as I know nearly only or maybe even only noblemen and people who made it as pupils into an abby (or a similar church project) were even able to go to school and get an education. And also the noblemen were schooled by monks or similar people. Like that it's not exactly a surprise most inventions came from people from the religious circle. But copernicus and also other people like da vinci imho show hat they coped with the church and tried to not get the officials angry because they had to but actually were not too happy with some of the church's believes. Maybe I just don't know enough about that stuff so feel free to update me (and I'm not being ironic here).

 

The top countries today are mainly western countries (not only), as you say they are christian countries mainly. But well, the richness in these countries imho comes from the fact that especially Europe colonized and therefore imho also exploited other countries. Doesn't matter if we talk about slaves or other ressources that they claimed in the past but still do now. Nowadays it is a little different with not having colonies but just using cheap labor in third- ord second-world countriers to make cheap goods that can be sold with a big margin. No wonder you can push it far in science if you are able to get money on the costs of others.

Interesting :)

 

Well, it depends on the period of course. You can not say how it was for the whole of Europe during 1000 years... But to make things short... untill the 9-10th century it were mostly rich people going into monastries. But that period was relatively unimportant for the future. After that it changed a lot, and with the Franciscans and the Dominican-orders this was totally untrue... Much more "poor" people ended up in those abbies. You had a segregation at that time. The royal abbies for rich people, and the "normal" abbies for normal people... but even many rich people chose for poor abbies out of religious believes... And many rich even tried to force the rich abbies to more strict (Theresa van Avila, Francis again, Dominico Guzman,...)

 

There are wild stories about Galileo, and his dispute with the church was not as bad as people think... Actually, the things he wrote were not "false", during his live pope (I forgot his name) said he had to change only a few things... And NOT the things where he is famous for today! Also, they say he was condemned to prison... Hell no, he had to stay at home, where everyone could come who wanted, so he was still free (relatively). As for Copernicus... he never cared too much. During his life his theory was only supported by a few guys. Only after his death it gained more attention.

 

Then, the question why we are doing "good" in so many fields is a though thing... And we can write books about it. There are SO many reasons. The colony theory proved to be wrong. For instance Canada, Russia, Scandinavia,... never had colonies. Altough our capitalistic way of living is a reason for sure. We make the world change the way WE want it, which makes us stronger of course. But still... I don't believe in coincedance, and in anthropologic circles, scietists do say Christianity is one of the factors... To make things clear: in Christian (and Judeism!) countries the will to study the bible/thora was so big, schools became important. Also, taking care of sick/poor people was place nr.1, which made doctors & hospitals priority. This an evolution nowhere else in the world was found.

 

Last but not least, this reminds me of one thing. I hear in Belgium people saying: the church is condemning gays... They do SAY things, but in Belgium many priests are openly gay. And the church it is OK, as everyone is equal. Also, there is no punishment whatsoever for people who are gay... While criticing the church, they forget only in Christian countries it is ok to be gay. I addes a map... have a look. Shocking, no? :) So I dare to say Christianity is the most progressive and open minded big religion today... :)

 

http://cdn3.chartsbin.com/chartimages/l_66v_57bdda449e85717e52e64f2d4b895384

 

 

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While criticing the church, they forget only in Christian countries it is ok to be gay.

I think it's a bit misleading to describe all those countries as "Christian", since many of them are secular democracies, albeit with large proportions of Christians. (I would argue that the "good kind" of secularism has its origin in the Radical Reformation, though I don't know enough about history to say this with any confidence.)

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I am very dissapointed that noone responded to my post. I really try hard to write some posts and than they are ignored, so rediculous. By any respect but I don`t unerstand the behaviour of some people here, trying to sound intelligent and arguing which countries are Christian and countries are not and much more in that manner. I have never encountered similar people like some of the people here, at least not on internet forums. People on other internet forums make much more sence than some of the people here.

 

I personally don't believe in the stuff you wrote above (stuff breaking because of braging about it and what not). I don't have any evidence or hard facts to not believe it but how I percieve the world this is not how it is for me. I do agree that sometimes you get what you sow but I also see a lot of people get away with shitloads of bad stuff so it's not like an universal rule for me. I als don't believe in a higher deity that cares what you personally do on a daily basis. Mainly becuase it does not make any sense for my personal understandig of the world that there should be a deity caring about stuff like that while it does not seem to care about the bigger stuff going wrong in the world like westerners getting all the benefits and letting other countries pay for it (which is a very, very recuded explanation of what is going on in the world but this thread is not about politics so I'm not getting into it).

 

I'm aware that just because I don't believe in something it does not have to mean it really doesn't exist but that's the point about religion and spiritiuality, it's not about knowing but about believing and I just can't believe in a god or even a deity like that.

 

Well it could be that those beings are able to control the things happening to some extent, but they would not kill any human or do stuff that harms it. That is possible because if you look to many people who do bad things to others, they do feel bad indeed but their ego is so strong that they don`t care about bad events happening to them. Look at all the dicators that where alive and brought bad things over the world (unfortunately) they wre feeling bad a lot of their lifetime, many commiting suicide.

 

Another thing that I want to show you however and you did not think about it properly. Do you think that only the Western people cause bad things to other people? Do you think that the poor people in Africa and Asia are innocent just because they are poor? I don`t think that it is their only chance and I don`t think that they have to born so much people draining on the worlds ressources. Any life that is allready born should have a good life, but they should control themself and prevent very high birth rates. so in my opinion not only the west people are bad and we don`t know how the spiritual feelings think anyway. it is a tough topi but it can be possible that the spiritual beings or god is taking actions to the bad people but wont harm them. Another possiblity is that some people recieve more attention than others, so far I sometimes recieved a lot of attention from them.

 

But on the other hand this theory could be crap aswell and everything be coincidents, that is another option

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Interesting :)

 

Well, it depends on the period of course. You can not say how it was for the whole of Europe during 1000 years... But to make things short... untill the 9-10th century it were mostly rich people going into monastries. But that period was relatively unimportant for the future. After that it changed a lot, and with the Franciscans and the Dominican-orders this was totally untrue... Much more "poor" people ended up in those abbies. You had a segregation at that time. The royal abbies for rich people, and the "normal" abbies for normal people... but even many rich people chose for poor abbies out of religious believes... And many rich even tried to force the rich abbies to more strict (Theresa van Avila, Francis again, Dominico Guzman,...)

 

There are wild stories about Galileo, and his dispute with the church was not as bad as people think... Actually, the things he wrote were not "false", during his live pope (I forgot his name) said he had to change only a few things... And NOT the things where he is famous for today! Also, they say he was condemned to prison... Hell no, he had to stay at home, where everyone could come who wanted, so he was still free (relatively). As for Copernicus... he never cared too much. During his life his theory was only supported by a few guys. Only after his death it gained more attention.

 

Then, the question why we are doing "good" in so many fields is a though thing... And we can write books about it. There are SO many reasons. The colony theory proved to be wrong. For instance Canada, Russia, Scandinavia,... never had colonies. Altough our capitalistic way of living is a reason for sure. We make the world change the way WE want it, which makes us stronger of course. But still... I don't believe in coincedance, and in anthropologic circles, scietists do say Christianity is one of the factors... To make things clear: in Christian (and Judeism!) countries the will to study the bible/thora was so big, schools became important. Also, taking care of sick/poor people was place nr.1, which made doctors & hospitals priority. This an evolution nowhere else in the world was found.

 

Last but not least, this reminds me of one thing. I hear in Belgium people saying: the church is condemning gays... They do SAY things, but in Belgium many priests are openly gay. And the church it is OK, as everyone is equal. Also, there is no punishment whatsoever for people who are gay... While criticing the church, they forget only in Christian countries it is ok to be gay. I addes a map... have a look. Shocking, no? :) So I dare to say Christianity is the most progressive and open minded big religion today... :)

 

http://cdn3.chartsbin.com/chartimages/l_66v_57bdda449e85717e52e64f2d4b895384

Thanks for all the Input! :) You really remind me I should read more about history in general, lately most books I read were about the time around the two world wars.

 

Your desription of the educational system is of course way more accurate than what I wrote. But it still kinda proofes my Point: now wonder that lots of inventions and scientifical breakthroughs were made by church People if the only way to get an education was getting it from them. Of course it was generous from the monasteries to offer that education, that's for sure. And it sure is a point why we were doing good (on the other Hand China was also wealthy and not a Christian country). Still, it's not like you had an alternative since you had to be a Christian back in those times so obviously every Invention was done by a christian.

 

Oviously there are many reasons why "we" are and were doing good. But I'm not convinced about the colonies not being a huge factor (but I will read up about that some more :)). The US used to be a colony and the people being in charge after they freed themselves were from europe originaly. The american natives were driven away, there culture being regarded as not worthy and what not. So we basically took their place and just installed our ways there. Sure you can say Africa was also freed but the difference is that this was not that long ago and even when the african countries are not colonys anymore they are still under pressure from our needs.

 

About the gay issue: it really depends on the church we are talking about since there are different Christian religions. You do find open-minded people there in all the different strains and also openly gay People. Still, you get lots of official statements from the higher circles that make it clear being gay is wrong. And also christian parties, who as you mentioned are way more liberal than other parties directly linked to a Religion, are the ones pushing the issue of gay marriage (or similar constructs like mariage) being wrong. How I see it this liberalism comes from the fact that we have a rather high level of education so some People simpy don't buy it anymore if religious believes want to tell them what do to and what not. So they had to adjust to the People otherwise they would lose their followers. Still you have lots of people thinking god wants only a man and a women to form a couple and what not.

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I am very dissapointed that noone responded to my post. I really try hard to write some posts and than they are ignored, so rediculous. By any respect but I don`t unerstand the behaviour of some people here, trying to sound intelligent and arguing which countries are Christian and countries are not and much more in that manner. I have never encountered similar people like some of the people here, at least not on internet forums. People on other internet forums make much more sence than some of the people here.

 

 

Well it could be that those beings are able to control the things happening to some extent, but they would not kill any human or do stuff that harms it. That is possible because if you look to many people who do bad things to others, they do feel bad indeed but their ego is so strong that they don`t care about bad events happening to them. Look at all the dicators that where alive and brought bad things over the world (unfortunately) they wre feeling bad a lot of their lifetime, many commiting suicide.

 

Another thing that I want to show you however and you did not think about it properly. Do you think that only the Western people cause bad things to other people? Do you think that the poor people in Africa and Asia are innocent just because they are poor? I don`t think that it is their only chance and I don`t think that they have to born so much people draining on the worlds ressources. Any life that is allready born should have a good life, but they should control themself and prevent very high birth rates. so in my opinion not only the west people are bad and we don`t know how the spiritual feelings think anyway. it is a tough topi but it can be possible that the spiritual beings or god is taking actions to the bad people but wont harm them. Another possiblity is that some people recieve more attention than others, so far I sometimes recieved a lot of attention from them.

As far as I know those dictators you mentioned killed themselves when their plans weren't working anymore and they didn't want to get punished for what they have done. I can't find much remorse in that.

 

I didn't write anything about the people in poorer countires being innocent in general. But it is very clear that we westerners have the economical power and the military force to tell third world-countries what to do and what not. And instead of using that power to give benefits to the poor we gladly support Forces in those countries who cooperate with us, no matter if they are doing good for their own people. Several of the african dictators or also former leaders in arabic or south american countries were pushed into their place with the help of western governemens since it was regarded as better to have a anti-communistic dictator than a regular ruler who might not play in a way "we" wouldn't like it.

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As far as I can tell not in the way you see that happening. For me it is very clear that our actions lead to consequences. You get reactions from the people around you because of the way you behave for example. You get what you sow so to say. But not all bad deeds get punished and not all people who behave righteous are having a happy life. Becsause of that (but not only because of that) I clearly don't feel that a higher diety is guiding my path and sending me whatever responses to my actions.

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As far as I can tell not in the way you see that happening. For me it is very clear that our actions lead to consequences. You get reactions from the people around you because of the way you behave for example. You get what you sow so to say. But not all bad deeds get punished and not all people who behave righteous are having a happy life. Becsause of that (but not only because of that) I clearly don't feel that a higher diety is guiding my path and sending me whatever responses to my actions.

 

Well, anyone has a different opinion about that issue.

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don't forget the European/American law are based on Christian ideals!

that's a huge simplification. of course there is an influence, but as far as i know roman law was a much bigger influence.

 

For the first part, read above... I don't think these are universal things... people want to believe that to cut themselve lose from religion, but religion is the base for our culture for thousands of years, you can't simply deny that...

 

Second thing: Romans and taking care of diseases: well, read about Galenus. He was the best "doctor" they had... And he is respsonsible for that fact millions of people died! He had the theory of the 4 body fluids... And medieval people followed him for a long time.

 

Most anthropologists even think we are into a higher level because of Christianity. It's not a coincedance the "top-"countries in the world concerning science etc are Christian countries. Since 1200 monastries were thé place for wisdom... And because of a more and more critical mind, they started to search for truth. This search was the beginning of humanism. Untill 18th century 95% of all super smart inventions were done by monks or religious people... Don't forget that! Afterwards it became less, but still a relatively big amount of people... And yes, you had a church that said certain things were wrong... But those conservative guys couldn't fight reality... (and to make things clear, they were fighting themselves... Guys like Copernicus were priests!)

 

What you said is the most common thing people THINK about medieval times. They were stupid and surpressed by a Catholic moloch-church. But the truth is far different... As a medievist (I studied extra about medieval times) I can only say... Read, read and read more... So you'll see the negative view on medieval times is still a renaissance thing! Middle Ages... Between the 2 "smart" ages... Oh come on, the basis of our culture was exactly there!

i am convinced they are universal things. i guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.

 

yes of course it was rubbish, but at least they were looking for rational explanations and acknowledged the plants used in folk medicine. it's still better than praying for a cure (in most cases anyway ;) ).

 

surely the monestaries were the places where you'd find educated people and where all the preservation and expansion of knowledge happened. still the arabic world became a more important place for 'science' in the middle ages at some point in time and (now, i'm really going onto thin ice considering you're much more knowlegdable about history as i am :D; you'll probably correct me but anyway...) the transformation of our society into what we know today and the rapid scientific advances happened only after (during, around?) the enlightenment when religion lost a great deal of its importance and the church's claims to have the answers to everything seemed more and more absurd (which probably was a gradual process starting earlier).

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I could write here so much more... But I prefer to talk about this... :) Where is that damn psynews meeting! :D come to the 10 years Suntrip party in BE and we'll have LOADS of time to discuss these interesting things :)

Haha, if we are talking for 9 pages already about this topic (which isn't a bad thing at all, actually a good thing to see how varied people are in the Goa scene), I can't imagine how long folks would be talking together about this live.

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I actually studied master in archeology... With a focus on middle ages. I ended up teaching history & religion because it was really uncertain to do excavations... And also I have much more free time now :)

 

So, go for it :)

Sounds interesting, how long until you got your masters? I find all of history so interesting (since that was the one thing i studied when I was young ever since elementary school). I've recently been interested in some Chinese history.

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Your desription of the educational system is of course way more accurate than what I wrote. But it still kinda proofes my Point: now wonder that lots of inventions and scientifical breakthroughs were made by church People if the only way to get an education was getting it from them. Of course it was generous from the monasteries to offer that education, that's for sure. And it sure is a point why we were doing good (on the other Hand China was also wealthy and not a Christian country). Still, it's not like you had an alternative since you had to be a Christian back in those times so obviously every Invention was done by a christian.

Interesting point. But without christianity there would be no educational system like we have today. Educating in the Roman/Greek times was only for the very rich with a personal teacher. The monastries were the ones that started to have more open schools for everyone that was smart enough (not only the rich!) It was the promotion of the brains... And the big change happened with the beg-monks... Because they had to preach, they needed a VERY good education to talk about religion on the street... They needed an answer for every critical question! There it all started... The search for knowledge instead the preservation of knowledge which happened before. This system is the basis for our modern scientific mind & school system.

Of course you are right that all inventions were made by Christians as everyone was Christian back then... But I mean, all inventions were made by monks or priests. Not just regular Christians. (also a side note, in most of the mediëval times not everyone was as Christian as we think... But that's a long story...) For sure this had to do with their background and money, so you are right there anyway. But certain genuises in the mediëval times were NOT rich, not of a high class and managed to be top notch thanks to the "school" system!

 

About the gay issue: it really depends on the church we are talking about since there are different Christian religions. You do find open-minded people there in all the different strains and also openly gay People. Still, you get lots of official statements from the higher circles that make it clear being gay is wrong. And also christian parties, who as you mentioned are way more liberal than other parties directly linked to a Religion, are the ones pushing the issue of gay marriage (or similar constructs like mariage) being wrong. How I see it this liberalism comes from the fact that we have a rather high level of education so some People simpy don't buy it anymore if religious believes want to tell them what do to and what not. So they had to adjust to the People otherwise they would lose their followers. Still you have lots of people thinking god wants only a man and a women to form a couple and what not.

You are right... Of course official Christian channels will be against gay marriage. This is for several religious reasons. But, they don't say you should get killed or anything like that. That's what I mean with the most liberal/free thinking. They will keep their religious ideals, but they don't force you (anymore)! You are a free human being... Which is super important. No other religion is that liberal.

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