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Theist or Atheist?


Panoptes

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About charity. Of course it is better to find a solution to a disease... But cool: they have a cure against lepracy. And still 40.000 people in the world have it. Who is helping them and giving them the necessary threatment to heal? Yes... NGO's like Damiaan-actie... ah well :) I would love to talk about this IRL...

that's (gobalised) capitalism, which is the first thing i'd put into the waste bin of history if i had the option to do so.

 

i have never heard of that ngo (which doesn't surprise me given the flemish name) but i don't doubt they do good work. but so do many other ngo's like doctors without borders.

i must confess - even if i have great respect for it - i'm not even sure if charity is a good thing in the long run. it's certainly helpful in the short term, but i don't see it solving the fundamental cause for people to have to depend on charity. it's rather perpetuating the situation by reducing their incentive to stand up to end the injustice (i realize that's not the possible in all cases but it's possible in some of them) - kind of like the strategy of panem et circenses to keep the people pacified. i do find it appalling that people have to depend on the good-will of better situated ones. but well... that's maybe a bit too idealistic/theoretical and not pragmatic enough to be applied to the real world :)

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If you use the philosophic argumentation, this statement is simply wrong:

"so still no one has given an example of a benefit of religion that can not be had without religion."

As humans always HAD religion in every culture in their past, it's actually you who should prove people without religion do things people WITH religion wouldn't do (because of their religion). If you would say this in university people would laugh with that statment. it is not following the rules of a debate.

Anyway, I still will answer... And I told you already... The best benefits of religion and their influence on people:

- more charity (Christian people give more away then NON believing people)
- taking care of the poor/sick (typical Christian/monotheistic)! In most religions this is not the main thing (cfr Judaism & Hinduism)! Which is one of the big reasons why the western world managed to evoluate till what we are today. Also, so many organisations helping people are Christian! And 90% of the hospitals in Belgium (and 100 years ago it was 100%)
- education! The idea of schools for everyone, is typical Christian and started in Christian society! In other cultures this was only for the rich people...

and some funny side effects of being religious:
- less depressions (logical, as they find strength in God)
- people become older (because they have a resting moment once in a while)

I can go on, I'm just curious how you will react. And don't say. "people wouldn't have done this too without religion" without arguments, examples,...

ah, but im not using a "philosophic argumentation". im using fact based argumentation.

 

charity, taking care of the poor and sick, and education??? really, you can not be serious. are you telling me that you think none of those things can be done without religion?

 

the burden of proof lies with the people making positive claims. that is to say the people who claim there IS a god (or gods), or that religion DOES provide a benefit that an individual can not get from another source. we all know its impossible to prove a negative...so you can not logically ask me to do so. i have asked for evidence showing my statement to be false...which you have not and can not provide.

 

perhaps you didnt understand my statement. im asking for examples of benefits of religion that CAN NOT be obtained without religion. im not asking for your opinion on what benefits you feel religion helps to provide. i want to know what benefits it provides that i cant get through other means.

 

the answer is nothing. religion at its best is a superfluous collection of superstitions and fairy tails, providing humanity with nothing that it cant do for itself without it. religion at its worst is a stifling hindrance to human progression and an engine for oppression, tyranny, hate, subjugation, violence, and murder.

 

 

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ah, but im not using a "philosophic argumentation". im using fact based argumentation.

 

Thats the whole point. You are not! There is not 1 fact. Because there is no precedent! No culture in the world is without religion! Our whole history is drenched into religion. EVERY culture and history! And your assumption is that we would be as far or even further without religion... How can you say that? You simply can't know... its not because in 20% of the world religion is fading away for 50 years you can say such things. A lot of scientific research prove the importance of religion...

 

You say schools, charity,... can be done without religion... but it never was... In history it all started WITH religions doing that!

 

For instance; extreme charity... People like San Damiano, who simply said: I give up my life to go on an island with lepres, and I will help them. I know I will die, but I will just make them a little more happy. He would only do that because he is religious and is sure heaven is awaiting on him. People that are not religious would never "give" their life away.

 

and if you are PURELY atheist...

 

Let's look to science: in evolution, nothing is by accident, so there is clearly a good evolutionary purpose in religion, otherwise it wont exist...

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Thats the whole point. You are not! There is not 1 fact. Because there is no precedent! No culture in the world is without religion! Our whole history is drenched into religion. EVERY culture and history! And your assumption is that we would be as far or even further without religion... How can you say that? You simply can't know... its not because in 20% of the world religion is fading away for 50 years you can say such things. A lot of scientific research prove the importance of religion...

You say schools, charity,... can be done without religion... but it never was... In history it all started WITH religions doing that!

For instance; extreme charity... People like San Damiano, who simply said: I give up my life to go on an island with lepres, and I will help them. I know I will die, but I will just make them a little more happy. He would only do that because he is religious and is sure heaven is awaiting on him. People that are not religious would never "give" their life away.

and if you are PURELY atheist...

Let's look to science: in evolution, nothing is by accident, so there is clearly a good evolutionary purpose in religion, otherwise it wont exist...

schools, charity, and anything else you can think of are done without religion every minute of every day all over the world. i am a completely non religious atheist...so according to your logic i am unable to do charitable things, or open a school? how does that make even the remotest bit of sense? there is nothing inherent to charity or education that requires religion to function.

 

you can not use the argument "religion has always been there" as proof that it NEEDS to be there. especially since the claim is false. people do things you claim need religion everyday without religion. i personally do things you claim need religion to do. or is it your claim that without religion my time helping others doesnt count?

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Let's look to science: in evolution, nothing is by accident, so there is clearly a good evolutionary purpose in religion, otherwise it wont exist...

 

that sentence is not only wrong, but follows no logical course whatsoever. nothing is by accident? in evolution, things mutate for no apparent reason all the time. and if it werent for a stray asteroid 65 million years ago...you and i wouldnt exist. maybe not an "accident" but as close to one in definition as you can get.

 

*edit* on second thought...you are correct in saying nothing is by accident. an "accident" would imply that there was conscious thought behind it. so i agree...nothing is by accident, but nothing is on purpose either.

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Thats the whole point. You are not! There is not 1 fact. Because there is no precedent! No culture in the world is without religion! Our whole history is drenched into religion. EVERY culture and history! And your assumption is that we would be as far or even further without religion... How can you say that? You simply can't know... its not because in 20% of the world religion is fading away for 50 years you can say such things. A lot of scientific research prove the importance of religion...

 

You say schools, charity,... can be done without religion... but it never was... In history it all started WITH religions doing that!

 

For instance; extreme charity... People like San Damiano, who simply said: I give up my life to go on an island with lepres, and I will help them. I know I will die, but I will just make them a little more happy. He would only do that because he is religious and is sure heaven is awaiting on him. People that are not religious would never "give" their life away.

 

and if you are PURELY atheist...

 

Let's look to science: in evolution, nothing is by accident, so there is clearly a good evolutionary purpose in religion, otherwise it wont exist...

Well, there are NGOs that are not linked to any religious institution and they als have people who volunteer to go to war zones or to help people who have disease that are contagious. How do you know that people who are not religous would not give their life away? Your point about heaven doesn't make sense to me. If you don't believe in heaven you also don't believe in hell, so you can die without the fear of getting punished for your sins. I also think it would be a little sad if San Damiano (I tried to google him since I assume he is something like a saint but I just found a church house named like that) just helps people because he wants to go to heaven and not because of the sake of the people (obviously I shouldn't critisize people who help since it doesn't really matter why they do it). How many people (I'm talking about civilans, not soldiers) die in war zones trying to protect the ones they love or even unknown people in need, they are all religious? How do you know that? And how do you know about their motives? Just because you are babtized doesn't make you religious you know...

 

Btw. you say that the people of the world never have been without religion. That's true, but maybe that's exactly why the world is how it is nowadays? With people blindly following greedy capitalistic rules, cropping all the ressources without thinking about the future, missusing nature but also missusing other people(s) and what not. I mean you could also say that the world has never been witout war/violence (at least not after the world's population has reached a certain number) and there are some benefits of that to some people, does that still justify wars in general? I mean in the past but also now lots of wars are/were justified with religious points(even when I suppose that this just was and is the bait for the people while the real point were ressourfces of any kind and power).

 

I mean it's quite nice that religious people spend more on charity than non-religious people (is there a statistic for that btw? and what is religious, people who actually believe or people who just didn't care to leave the church and are therefor still regarded as christians) but if the religious people who are obviously a majority would really care wouldn't they rather be interested in correcting the factors that lead to poverty than donate money? Like start to buy products that don't give huge profits to western companys while yielding workers in the third world? Would be more effectife than donating money? And yes, also non-religious people should do that. But you know what, I actually know some who at least try.

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  • 2 years later...

Monotheism, especially Islam since it addresses both mind and heart in a an amazingly complete approach.

 

 

Having lived for some time in the Middle East, I can tell you Islam as a religion is currently the most misunderstood and

media bombarded religion. It has reserved the number 1 place as the enemy to exploiters of our times, mainly since,

had any country the chance to rule under Islamic values, many interests of dictators and materialistic giants

would have fallen apart.

 

The general consensus is that science and religion do not meet, rather they even negate one another.

This doesnt seem to be the case with Islam, especially when we realize that the book of Muslims, the Quraan (Koran),

contains over 1000 verses (out of 6236 total, I think) that have a scientific nature or background.

Many fields are addressed, including:

 

Astronomy/Astrophysics:

You will be amazed to find that the 7th century (A.D.) Book talks clearly of:

1. The big bang

2. Expansion of the universe

3. Law of gravity

4. Celestial bodies nature

 

...and even some hints to relativity and light-speed!

 

References to some stars and astral events are also present, including:

 

Black Holes, Pulsars (pulsating stars)and even the star Sirius! (the latter being a Star worshiped by ancient Egyptians/ Arabs)

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=53&verse=49

http://www.ediscoverislam.com/understanding-holy-quran/scientific-miracle-quran-universe-black-hole

 

 

Though Judaism & Christianity may have similar roots or common beliefs with Islam, the latter combines the mind-quenching logic

of scientific fact-finding (and mind-expanding realizations), with the poetically expressed enigmas of the metaphysical

(Angels, Paradise, Hell, and much more).

 

 

Isaac Newton, one of the most complete scientists in known history, was deeply religious.

Albert Einstein, another great scientist behind two of the most important scientific discoveries, is also knows to have said:

Science without religion is lame, Religion without science is blind. (Albert Einstein, 1941)

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Im an agnostic in sense that I dont throw out the possibility of gods existance. But I am anti-religionist so anti christian, anti-muslim, anti-hindu. I am against everything man has made around a god/s.

Theists have warped the image of god so crazily that they are fooling themselves on so many levels with hypocritical creeds that they made for themselves to feel better about their personal "qualities" that they dont actually like. When I talk to a theist I notice that they live inside an illusion, inside an illusion inside another illusion. I dont press on theists but I have to admit that I feel pity for them.

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I am a Muslim, grew up in a multi-cultural society and I really appreciate the diversity that my country offers. There are still Jewish, Orthodox and Catholic temples standing right next to mosques in our capital city, and while there were turbulent times in the past (mainly because of dirty dirty politics), religious people are still very helpful to each other, regardless of their creed. I'm sure that the world would be a great place if all people (regardless of their beliefs) worked on tangible things together. The world is developing into a multi-cultural place, one day the whole planet will be a mix of everything. If people stick to the old ideas of "I am always right, you are wrong", we will see big world wars in the future, and history teaches us those are pretty bad. Maybe I'm preaching but I really hope that new generations will be busier and more focused on creating a better world for everyone, without feeling superior to anybody else because of different views on the world or religion.

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