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djmaxfactor1995

Spiritualism and drugs in the psytrance scene

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i haven't found a good source on the web. just this paragraph from a random website:

(whoops, i mixed up krishna and shiva here :unsure:. i thought shiva played the flute too?)

 

i guess i heard about the story in a interview with anderson on some jethro tull dvd...

 

 

It's all good. I didn't feel like calling you out and being like HEY YOU GOT DETAILS WRONG... I knew what you were talking about anyway. :)

Interesting that that happened.

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Procyon    12

Here's my personal experience on spiritualism and psytrance.

Just want to share this with you, so some can see the scene from a new - and for some, unacceptable - angle. My family is half Catholic, half Kardecist (google Allan Kardec, for further info). Kardecism is not actually a religion, but more exactly a doctrine, as it tries hard to join religion and science (think of quantum mechanics here). For those who want it brief: Kardecists believe in life after death, that death is just a passage of energy (your soul) from this world (a world of 4 dimensions) to a different one (with more dimensions). These worlds are entangled, that's why we - some of us, to be more exact - feel more than the eyes can see. Here I am talking about spirits, and practices like seances and mediums - which I am, despite being a very uneducated one. Your death is an event that had a time, a place and a how-to, all planned by God (yes, God is God for us), and you are supposed to have accomplished your "karma" (yes, your mission) - whatever it was. After you die, your body is just what it is: a vehicle your soul used to interact materially with the world. So, after death your body (a blessing we should thank for every day, we believe) return to its source, Nature. Your soul, your true you, then goes to wherever your heart is: those who lived as a human being should live, according to what Christ taught us, will go to higher planes where life is steps better than what we experience here. Those who made many mistakes intentionally - say, man who killed for money - will go to lower planes, where life is much worse than what we live here. These two different planes, higher and lower, are what mediums describe when they see, hear or interact with spirits. For, the ones living in a better place, feel they accomplished their mission here, they're happy. The ones living in the lower planes are in a constant state of despair, sadness, shame. As God is infinitely good, those living in "hell" (using a Catholic word, which we don't use. And the notions are different too: for Catholics, one who fell to hell, will be there forever repenting from the sins. For us, Kardecists, everyone - even the most unrepentant ones - will someday give up their mistakes and become an enlightned spirit), He gives another chance, a new start. The elevated spirits also may reincarnate if they want so, for instance, to help his/her family - that's why we sometimes see our long gone grandfather in our newborn son. So here enters our notion of "reincanation". Everybody, some more, some less, have lived different lives on Earth (and in other planets too). (Personally, I have this strong feeling I lived my past two lives in Denmark and in Tibet. Have your ever felt an inate attraction for another land, culture, people? It is this). Well, in the end, Kardecism says, man is bound for a better life, a better place. It's a positive doctrine, for it says that ALL mankind will be transformed - thru individual efforts - to a better mankind.

 

Ok, enough. As Kardecism deals a lot with energies and vibrations, we know the everything has a good, a neutral, or a bad vibration, with in-between variants among them. Music is one form of energy that affects the soul deeply, as we all feel that. Every genre is a form of energy. Psychedelic is not special at this. Some of my medium friends are affected by rock'n roll, Bach, and so on. I am affected by almost everything melodic. Psytrance works as a portal, a gate, to me: after some minutes, when I concentrate, I start feeling cascades of energies envolving my body. My perceptions are augmented, and I feel like I am submersed in a thank of good energies. You may ask: what is the use of psytrance then, to a kardecist point of view? The answer is: it is only a gate, a portal, that connects this world to a different dimension - but nothing goes or comes thru this gate. It is only a personal learning. Evolution as a human being takes more than listening and understanding the energies of music. It takes daily efforts. That's how I see it.

 

For the sake of debating energies, this "feel good" experience I wrote above does not not work with every single psy track. To be more exact, these good energies are not felt anymore. They peaked, guess when. during the Goa Trance years. Please, it's not a matter of personal taste. I studied psytrance writing for a while and elements like the "Arab musical scale" helped create the cascade of energies, its non-worldy, unnatural, sequence instantly triggers the opening of portals. As we know, the scale is not used anymore, or the deep space sounds, or other sort of melodies. Full on is sort of a partially open portal, it works weakly. Progressive psy works partially too, it lacks the frequency needed.

 

For the scientifically interested one, these energies, gates and portals, etc...are almost the same that quantum mechanics experiments describe. For instance, the two slit experiment, for us, is the interaction of our dimensions with other hidden dimensions, for the photon or electron is not part - exclusively - of our dimensions, as many believe they are. They're more "windows" from other dimensions opened to us. Not the contrary.

 

So, from the Kardecist point of view, our world is only part of a bigger reality - which we understand only partially, poorly. Our world is not the Main Reality as we take it is.

 

As for drugs: they work as, well, drugs, that open the portals of energies. But, our body is made of fragile materials we still don't know about. When drugs open these portals, they also open 'scars' in the perispiritual body - and these scars are an opening to bad energies that eventually destroy the spiritual body, the same way drugs also destroy neurons.

 

Well, I didn't judge other people's beliefs. I hope mine is also respected.

I just wanted to share with you how psytrance is taken seriously - spiritually speaking - by some of us.

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Time_Trap    15

and these scars are an opening to bad energies that eventually destroy the spiritual body, the same way drugs also destroy neurons.

not all drugs destroy neurons.In fact classic psychedelics(lsd,mushrooms,mescaline) create more connections(synapses) in your brain. That can lead to increased memory and more associative thinking.

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Procyon    12

not all drugs destroy neurons.In fact classic psychedelics(lsd,mushrooms,mescaline) create more connections(synapses) in your brain. That can lead to increased memory and more associative thinking.

 

Ok, TimeTrap. Here's what I have read in Kardecists books: any drug, be it alcohol, tobacco, lsd, create a momentary feel good state. But as it is artificially created thru violence (see, the smoke of a cigarette is seen as it is: nocive pollution inside the body),

this "pleasure" soon turns into pain. Well, I have never taken drugs of any kind, but I have friends who have episodes of depression after the effect of the drug is gone. I drink sometimes, I am aware how horrible I feel the other day (that's why I wrote I am an

uneducated medium). What I mean is: all artificially state of happines turns into some loss, someday. The drugs you mentioned, we believe they let the 'spirit' in a semi-letargic state after life.

 

Problem is that all these "feel good" drugs have a natural alternative for them: yoga and meditation, for instance.

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Time_Trap    15

Ok, TimeTrap. Here's what I have read in Kardecists books: any drug, be it alcohol, tobacco, lsd, create a momentary feel good state. But as it is artificially created thru violence (see, the smoke of a cigarette is seen as it is: nocive pollution inside the body),

this "pleasure" soon turns into pain. Well, I have never taken drugs of any kind, but I have friends who have episodes of depression after the effect of the drug is gone. I drink sometimes, I am aware how horrible I feel the other day (that's why I wrote I am an

uneducated medium). What I mean is: all artificially state of happines turns into some loss, someday. The drugs you mentioned, we believe they let the 'spirit' in a semi-letargic state after life.

 

Problem is that all these "feel good" drugs have a natural alternative for them: yoga and meditation, for instance.

 

well that might be - less or more - true for alcohol or opiates or cocaine and amphetamines or even weed.

But not for classic psychedelics : These are far from 'feel good' drugs, it's mostly a journey into the subconscious and heaven/hell like. I would like some further evidence to believe something especially if a statement is so pompous as to speak about *any* drug. And how can we even now what state the leave the spirit after life? That reminds me of the following:

Person: What happens after death?

Zen Master: I don't know.

Person: But you are a Zen master!

Zen Master: Yes, but not a DEAD Zen Master.

No offense of course!! :)

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Procyon    12

well that might be - less or more - true for alcohol or opiates or cocaine and amphetamines or even weed.

But not for classic psychedelics : These are far from 'feel good' drugs, it's mostly a journey into the subconscious and heaven/hell like. I would like some further evidence to believe something especially if a statement is so pompous as to speak about *any* drug. And how can we even now what state the leave the spirit after life? That reminds me of the following:

Person: What happens after death?

Zen Master: I don't know.

Person: But you are a Zen master!

Zen Master: Yes, but not a DEAD Zen Master.

No offense of course!! :)

 

As with any other aspect invisible to us - religions, for instance - it's a matter of individual belief.

I may cite some cases of severe "lapses of memory" a friend of mine - graduating in Chemistry has. He says it's because of E's.

I believe him, you might say it's because of other causes, like a genetic problem.

There's no way of proving that. We can do nothing, but believe.

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Time_Trap    15

As with any other aspect invisible to us - religions, for instance - it's a matter of individual belief.

I may cite some cases of severe "lapses of memory" a friend of mine - graduating in Chemistry has. He says it's because of E's.

I believe him, you might say it's because of other causes, like a genetic problem.

There's no way of proving that. We can do nothing, but believe.

 

No, in fact you are right in this one .E's/MDMA DO cause memory problems. I was talking about specific category of substances (classic psychedelics) which can also have therapeutic potential (and MDMA has therapeutic potential too, in fact it's researched, check maps.org, it's just that abuse of it can cause depression and memory problems)

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Darkarbiter    1

Ok, TimeTrap. Here's what I have read in Kardecists books: any drug, be it alcohol, tobacco, lsd, create a momentary feel good state. But as it is artificially created thru violence (see, the smoke of a cigarette is seen as it is: nocive pollution inside the body),

this "pleasure" soon turns into pain. Well, I have never taken drugs of any kind, but I have friends who have episodes of depression after the effect of the drug is gone. I drink sometimes, I am aware how horrible I feel the other day (that's why I wrote I am an

uneducated medium). What I mean is: all artificially state of happines turns into some loss, someday. The drugs you mentioned, we believe they let the 'spirit' in a semi-letargic state after life.

 

Problem is that all these "feel good" drugs have a natural alternative for them: yoga and meditation, for instance.

 

I love this argument. Alcohol gives me a hangover therefore lsd makes you feel worse the next day.

 

Highly logical

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Tatsu    30

As with any other aspect invisible to us - religions, for instance - it's a matter of individual belief.

I may cite some cases of severe "lapses of memory" a friend of mine - graduating in Chemistry has. He says it's because of E's.

I believe him, you might say it's because of other causes, like a genetic problem.

There's no way of proving that. We can do nothing, but believe.

 

It's hard to say where stuff like that comes from. It might very well be because of the Es he took. But it also depends on how regularly and how much he took. You can use or abuse, same as with alcohol or any other thing, even food.

 

From my personal experiences I can say the following: I'm taking MDMA for more than 10 years now (I'm 32 years old), not every weekend but with breaks inbetween. Sometimes the breaks are longer, some month, sometimes it's only two weeks. Depends on a lot of stuff. I also did various other drugs too. Some even make me feel better the days after (LSD). I do not feel like I have any memory problem. Sure, the day after my brain is a bit slow but that goes away after a good amount of sleep and some food. I work at the same place for 15 years, I switched to a better internal position about a year ago. I started to go back to school (after work that means) and finished the first two years. I passed my exams without problems. I did study a lot but it works. So I think my brain is healthy (not all students passed, non of the others is doing drusg as far as I know, only alcohol). Obviously I do not know how my brain would feel without ever taking any substance. It's just that for me the good sides way overweights the bad sides of the substances I still take.

 

Anyway, I'm not denying the power of yoga and mediation. If it is the right way for you, then go for it! No need to take any substances to evolve yourself, you found a better way. Keep it up and stay true to yourself. But everyone has to follow his own path. If you do read about drugs, have in mind that not all books are written in an objective way (they can be too positive or negative). Lots of long-term effects (and even short-term ones) are not scientificaly proven. Which makes it risky to take drugs but it makes it also easy to scear people.

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I can't talk about international parties but here you can't find a set that is not beatmixed properly. Sure, there is Goa Gill but that is one single DJ and as far as I know he never could beatmix. So you know what you get when you book him or go to a party where he is DJing... But being able to beatmix does of course not say anything about the quality of the tracks, that's another story and depends on your personal taste.

 

 

 

I wonder how you define a person that qualifies as hippie? The drugged up freaks that dance for 12 hours straight fall most of the times in the category "tweaker" and not hippie. At least in my area. That would explain the fast and monotonous music, too. Which is, again in my area, not that much of an item. Or maybe I should say it is but if you check the flyers and online forum about the parties you want to visit, you can guess what kind of music is played and refuse to attend parties that don't fit your taste.

 

I know I always sound like I want to defend the scene. Which is not my goal, I don't like every single thing in the scene either. I just see so much more going on than the stuff described in a lot of threads here. So many musical styles, so many different people, also different drugs, different parties (from the size, location and what not)... I wonder more and more if this is only the case in cozy little Switzerland or what?

 

About your drug experiences and stuff: it's interesting to hear what you did back in the days, also how you perceived parties and what not. I just wonder what the connection of those drugs intakes and the rest of your text are. Maybe you care to explain how those are linked? :)

 

Tatsu,

Sorry not to reply until now. You are so good at writing your thoughts in a way that doesn't offend. I wish I had some control over my writing. You would think it would be helpful that this medium allows me to revise or redo before I submit it. It is consistent with how I wrote in school, though. I didn't like whole revision thing. I just made my rough draft the final draft.

Anyway, I am glad you read what I post, and ask questions. You really help me. I find that, in my mind I am answering your question, but recently, I find myself thinking about what you and others have advised me. That I may be looking at it from a very local view and not globally. So, I am realizing many things can be different. Sorry.

But, especially the whole "hippie" thing, I have grown up in the area that gave birth to an entire generation of hippies.

So, yes a tweaker would be the obvious association. I think I replied to this before but I was obviously not thinking clearly. At any rate, I think that I have been around so many hippies and not just SF area but there are a lot in Hawaii (Kauai mostly). Watch footage of Woodstock, I think you might see what I am talking about. One in particular is that guy who is shaking his head so fast he looks like one of the demons from Jacob's ladder. Typically a hippie is not as skinny as a tweeker. And hippies have the worst B.O. in the world--I would bet.

 

And yes drugs have been a huge part of my life. Not like some junkie. I think that the drugs and music go hand in hand. But you don't have do them, certainly. But, there is a lot of Amphetamine-like stuff, Classic Hallucinogens, The Emerald Triangle just North of me. The best buds in the world. I am pretty sure of that. Especially when Amsterdam imports most of their seeds from there. My Dad was a Dead Head -- he was a Vietnam Marine Veteran -- that made it difficult for him to become a hippie. Thank goodness. But, still got into the movement, we lived on a sex commune til I was five, it was Make Peace Not War, Sex, Drugs and Rock n Roll, free love for all. Now, I see a bumper sticker that says "Hugs not Drugs." That makes me wretch. Seriously, Bill Hicks says it very eloquently when he describes his drug experience. He says, "Not all drugs are good, some are great." That makes me smile. He goes on to say how he has done a lot of drugs and it was not a bad thing. I think for many people they have bad experiences with drugs and the stigma they have in society reinforces that it is not possible to do drugs and have a good life. I think that drugs are part of life. It's the way we are educated and marketed, that harms us more that drugs. To put crack and pot together and say they harm you the same. And then you watch commercials with sexy woman and it says "This Bud's For you." "It's Miller time" and to fine the entire tobacco industry billions of dollars for lying about how bad cigarettes are on your health.

Cigarettes are still legal. So, it's not really drugs, it's really the ones that are socially acceptable. And that can't be right. Alcohol and Tobacco? Acceptable. All others, unless prescribed, unacceptable, and now all over the U.S. especially in California, Pot is very much accepted to be medically useful. But, the federal law still has it categorized the same as heroin and crack. So, it's very much a big lie and people still go along with it all over the world but the U.S, is the worst. I think.

 

Before goa/psytrance I went to the big raves like Funky Techno Tribe, The Gathering....and the other 1000+ people raves and that was when DJ Dan and Doc Martin and Sasha and Rabbit in the Moon (love RITM) The Hardkiss record release of Delusions of Grandeur was incredible. The whole rave underground was still underground and drugs were pretty much mandatory. But there was no psychedelic-labeled music. But, there was a lot of Acid and MDMA and pot and crank and Rufies were coming onto the scene. You know the date rape drug? I don't know what inhuman asshole started that shit. If you can't get a laid without tranquilizing the girl, you need to have your balls cut off. You know what Rufies are. Flunitrazepam. I was just looking that up to make sure and of course, the fucking government. It states it was only used in 1% of the cases and that of the woman tested, only 1/3rd of 1 percent...So, it is not the date rape drug. Thank goodness, I thought that it was an awesome drug, if you were frying too hard or having a bad trip you could take one and you were gel...it took the edge off of everything. It was the perfect comedown after party drug. Before you fell asleep you were social and everything was funny and wonderful and then you woke up like 14 hours later and no idea what happened. It did have a strong amnesic effect that's for sure. I just read that it was considered to be the most effective benzodiazapene. And they falsified date rape to classify it more harmful than alcohol? If you want to know what the true date rape drug. It's alcohol!!!!! What is going on? Have you ever had surgery and they have to put you under? If you are really scared they ask you if you want Valium before the anesthetic. You know why? Not too relax you. Because Valium has a high amnesic effect. The reason they give it to you is because going through surgery can be very traumatic. An amnesic helps you forget the trauma. That is what the Rufie's did. But way better. They were so powerful, too.

 

How does Switzerland perceive drugs?

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Tatsu    30

Tatsu,

Sorry not to reply until now. You are so good at writing your thoughts in a way that doesn't offend. I wish I had some control over my writing. You would think it would be helpful that this medium allows me to revise or redo before I submit it. It is consistent with how I wrote in school, though. I didn't like whole revision thing. I just made my rough draft the final draft.

Anyway, I am glad you read what I post, and ask questions. You really help me. I find that, in my mind I am answering your question, but recently, I find myself thinking about what you and others have advised me. That I may be looking at it from a very local view and not globally. So, I am realizing many things can be different. Sorry.

But, especially the whole "hippie" thing, I have grown up in the area that gave birth to an entire generation of hippies.

So, yes a tweaker would be the obvious association. I think I replied to this before but I was obviously not thinking clearly. At any rate, I think that I have been around so many hippies and not just SF area but there are a lot in Hawaii (Kauai mostly). Watch footage of Woodstock, I think you might see what I am talking about. One in particular is that guy who is shaking his head so fast he looks like one of the demons from Jacob's ladder. Typically a hippie is not as skinny as a tweeker. And hippies have the worst B.O. in the world--I would bet.

 

And yes drugs have been a huge part of my life. Not like some junkie. I think that the drugs and music go hand in hand. But you don't have do them, certainly. But, there is a lot of Amphetamine-like stuff, Classic Hallucinogens, The Emerald Triangle just North of me. The best buds in the world. I am pretty sure of that. Especially when Amsterdam imports most of their seeds from there. My Dad was a Dead Head -- he was a Vietnam Marine Veteran -- that made it difficult for him to become a hippie. Thank goodness. But, still got into the movement, we lived on a sex commune til I was five, it was Make Peace Not War, Sex, Drugs and Rock n Roll, free love for all. Now, I see a bumper sticker that says "Hugs not Drugs." That makes me wretch.

Yeah, I see the difference. :) I have a particular scene from the woodstock movie in mind now. I don't nkow if you mean the same scene but I'm pretty sure it's at least similar. Deamon you say? Imho he is just tripping out on whatever mixture of drugs (or just one?). Nothing wrong with that as long as he is not bothering (phisicaly I mean) anybody. What is a B.O. (like in your last sentence, I don't know that expression) btw? Just for my understanding (and with no offence meant): why is it you seem to have a problem with hippies? I mean the image I have (my mom used to be one, on Switzerland obviously but still: did a lot of drugs, listened to the music, travelled with a backpack and what not) is absolutely positive about them and their way of life. Obviously it is my perspective and you will for sure have valid arguments for your point of view. I just want to understand. :) You describe that you were sort of part of the movement because of your dad. I take it you had some bad experiences then? On the other hand you also take drugs and besides the free love part your life drug intake sounds pretty hippie like too (no offense meant with that).

 

Seriously, Bill Hicks says it very eloquently when he describes his drug experience. He says, "Not all drugs are good, some are great." That makes me smile. He goes on to say how he has done a lot of drugs and it was not a bad thing. I think for many people they have bad experiences with drugs and the stigma they have in society reinforces that it is not possible to do drugs and have a good life. I think that drugs are part of life. It's the way we are educated and marketed, that harms us more that drugs. To put crack and pot together and say they harm you the same. And then you watch commercials with sexy woman and it says "This Bud's For you." "It's Miller time" and to fine the entire tobacco industry billions of dollars for lying about how bad cigarettes are on your health.

Cigarettes are still legal. So, it's not really drugs, it's really the ones that are socially acceptable. And that can't be right. Alcohol and Tobacco? Acceptable. All others, unless prescribed, unacceptable, and now all over the U.S. especially in California, Pot is very much accepted to be medically useful. But, the federal law still has it categorized the same as heroin and crack. So, it's very much a big lie and people still go along with it all over the world but the U.S, is the worst. I think.

 

I can sort of relate do that. It's pretty bizzare if you try to look at that objectively. On the other hand tobacco and alcohol companys have a huge lobby so obviously there is no way politicans can make them illegal too. And I can imagine they feel the danger of weed being legal and replacing them (especially alcohol, tobacco would maybe even profit from that since nearly nobody smokes weed without tobacco).

 

Before goa/psytrance I went to the big raves like Funky Techno Tribe, The Gathering....and the other 1000+ people raves and that was when DJ Dan and Doc Martin and Sasha and Rabbit in the Moon (love RITM) The Hardkiss record release of Delusions of Grandeur was incredible. The whole rave underground was still underground and drugs were pretty much mandatory. But there was no psychedelic-labeled music. But, there was a lot of Acid and MDMA and pot and crank and Rufies were coming onto the scene. You know the date rape drug? I don't know what inhuman asshole started that shit. If you can't get a laid without tranquilizing the girl, you need to have your balls cut off. You know what Rufies are. Flunitrazepam. I was just looking that up to make sure and of course, the fucking government. It states it was only used in 1% of the cases and that of the woman tested, only 1/3rd of 1 percent...So, it is not the date rape drug. Thank goodness, I thought that it was an awesome drug, if you were frying too hard or having a bad trip you could take one and you were gel...it took the edge off of everything. It was the perfect comedown after party drug. Before you fell asleep you were social and everything was funny and wonderful and then you woke up like 14 hours later and no idea what happened. It did have a strong amnesic effect that's for sure. I just read that it was considered to be the most effective benzodiazapene. And they falsified date rape to classify it more harmful than alcohol? If you want to know what the true date rape drug. It's alcohol!!!!! What is going on? Have you ever had surgery and they have to put you under? If you are really scared they ask you if you want Valium before the anesthetic. You know why? Not too relax you. Because Valium has a high amnesic effect. The reason they give it to you is because going through surgery can be very traumatic. An amnesic helps you forget the trauma. That is what the Rufie's did. But way better. They were so powerful, too.

 

How does Switzerland perceive drugs?

 

I've heard about Ruffies (I think the official name is Rohypnol?). Not that much of an item. Here there are mainly used by junkies who are on cold turkey so they get over the symptoms of the turkey. If a date-rape drug is used here, it is mainly GHB. Maybe it is because Switzerland is a rather small (and rich) country but stuff like that does not happen that often. Of course it depends to which clubs/parties you're going. But that's one of the good things here. Even if (or maybe because) we are rather small you have lots of opportunities. Whitin the psy-scene but also in general. I prefere to either go to alternative/smaller parties or to psy events (size doesn't matter), also more commercial events. To me they give still a rather familiar feeling (I'm talking about outdoor, parties in club can be very different). You do have drug abuse and other ugly stuff but imho it is on a balanced level. Musicwise I'm very happy, all psy styles are here so you can choose.

 

I occasionaly work at this alternative gay place and I made lots of friends there. The parties there are awesome too. Not psy but progressive/minimal/techno/elektro like (depends on which DJs they hire) and even when it is no psy it is like a family/tribe gathering. I used to know nobody there but I made friends after some months (I'm pretty shy with people who I don't know so that's quite a thing). I also take drugs and of course that makes it easier since it connects me with the other druggies. But it's not only that, the friendly vibe is there also when being sobber (and not all take drugs or even think it's ok to do so). Crowd there is very mixes (same as it is at the psy parties), one of my mates just turned 50 in december, others are in my age 8around 30) but you also got the 20-somethings.

 

I never was into benzos. They can come handy, to ease a comedown from coke for example. But I don't really do it anymore and for stuff like MDMA or acid I can take the landing without help. Imho the comedown from MDMA is even a good thing. If you want the fun with it you have to pay the price. If you don't wanna pay it, fun is over. So far it's still lots of fun. And for LSD, no comedown at all. Sure, tripping hard can be frightening but I never had a bad trip. Or at least not on a level I thought I would not be able to take it so... The other stuff I take is also bearable without any help to comedown. I'm always curious to try new hallucinogenes and what not.

 

Imho Switzerland has a pretty ok view on drug. Obviously all the stuff besides alcohol and tobacco is illegal. And when we were able to vote about legalising weed the majority voted no since the media and propaganda sceared them. Still, you get a fee for smoking weed but if you don't smoke in front of a cop, nobody notices it. It can be hard to find decent weed for a decent price if you don't know anybody. It's even more easiser to buy coke on the street. Which is kinda absurd and imho an error from the politics. But that's how it goes. There are projects for junkies, giving them out substitute medicaments or heroin and if you face a serious problem (like I did with coke) you can get free counceling. And it's good counceling (ok, depending on the person who you get obviously) that really tries to help you and not stereotyped "drugs are bad" talks. It helped me a lot.

 

So basically I'm happy about living here, especially reading some of the comments about how the scene is going down and what not. Either I don't notice it since my perception is different or then the scene here really is not like the scene elswhere. Where are you from btw? It's nice to talk to you and seeing we have some similar but still different backrounds is cool. :)

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Ok, TimeTrap. Here's what I have read in Kardecists books: any drug, be it alcohol, tobacco, lsd, create a momentary feel good state. But as it is artificially created thru violence (see, the smoke of a cigarette is seen as it is: nocive pollution inside the body),

this "pleasure" soon turns into pain. Well, I have never taken drugs of any kind, but I have friends who have episodes of depression after the effect of the drug is gone. I drink sometimes, I am aware how horrible I feel the other day (that's why I wrote I am an

uneducated medium). What I mean is: all artificially state of happines turns into some loss, someday. The drugs you mentioned, we believe they let the 'spirit' in a semi-letargic state after life.

 

Problem is that all these "feel good" drugs have a natural alternative for them: yoga and meditation, for instance.

 

But Kardec was dead before the advent of LSD. And, he hailed from French High Society. Many of you have advised that my view does not relate to other people. I can understand that some drugs impede your spirit. So, as a scientist, wouldn't he be more objective and wouldn't he use the scientific method to hypothesize the claims that he made? Especially when drugs have been used consistently in society from prehistoric period.

And. if you believe that God created the Earth and everything on it, why would he put mariuana everywhere? Why would he put mushrooms in cow shit? Why would almost every known drug occur in nature and in vivo? We produce dopamine. That is artificial? And, ask yourself, would pleasure exist without pain? If so, how would you know? Again, I am terrible written communication so, I am not negative or condescending. I just would like your view because it helps.

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Procyon    12

But Kardec was dead before the advent of LSD. And, he hailed from French High Society. Many of you have advised that my view does not relate to other people. I can understand that some drugs impede your spirit. So, as a scientist, wouldn't he be more objective and wouldn't he use the scientific method to hypothesize the claims that he made? Especially when drugs have been used consistently in society from prehistoric period.

And. if you believe that God created the Earth and everything on it, why would he put mariuana everywhere? Why would he put mushrooms in cow shit? Why would almost every known drug occur in nature and in vivo? We produce dopamine. That is artificial? And, ask yourself, would pleasure exist without pain? If so, how would you know? Again, I am terrible written communication so, I am not negative or condescending. I just would like your view because it helps.

 

Ok, DJ MXF. Kardec didn't write anything on drugs, to be precise. He just compiled Le Livre des Esprits and other 4 livres. These books are the foundation of what we call Espiritism. The books I mentioned that have messages from the invisible dimensions are post-Kardec. There are some written specifically about the post-morten experiences drug addicts feel - and they're not nice (we learn that a person that made constant use of drugs will return in the next life with severe congenital problems, as a way of learning to respect his/her body/soul). As for your last questions, I have to elaborate about Espiritism a little further: we believe man is an spirit in constant progress. We progress here and in the spiritual dimension, some of us will have to have more earthly lives than others. But we are still not elevated, far from that. That's why we still make use of violence, for instance, instead of reasoning. As for drugs, it's quite interesting: we believe that all of us here on Earth want to experience the invisible dimension, we miss it while we're here. Some are aware of that, some are not. So, when a person uses drugs what he/she wants basically is to experience a higher state of elevation. Why God created drugs? Well, we believe that God didn't create LSD, for instance, but he allowed it to be developed for good use - medicinal use, for example. But man was given what we call "Free Will", and he is free to make good or bad use of what we have here. A knife, for example, can be a tool for a dedicated worker. But it also can be a deadly weapon. It's the beholder that makes the difference. As for your question on pleasure and pain, yes, we believe there could be pleasure without pain. But we are far from appreciating that.

 

As Tatsu wrote, each to his own. That' so true. What we know is that the ones who made more mistakes will take a longer path to elevation, but everyone is entitled to a better life someday. I don't say that if my friend is a heavy drinker he is wrong, if that's what makes him happy. Free Will rules our lives.

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Ok, DJ MXF. Kardec didn't write anything on drugs, to be precise. He just compiled Le Livre des Esprits and other 4 livres. These books are the foundation of what we call Espiritism. The books I mentioned that have messages from the invisible dimensions are post-Kardec. There are some written specifically about the post-morten experiences drug addicts feel - and they're not nice (we learn that a person that made constant use of drugs will return in the next life with severe congenital problems, as a way of learning to respect his/her body/soul). As for your last questions, I have to elaborate about Espiritism a little further: we believe man is an spirit in constant progress. We progress here and in the spiritual dimension, some of us will have to have more earthly lives than others. But we are still not elevated, far from that. That's why we still make use of violence, for instance, instead of reasoning. As for drugs, it's quite interesting: we believe that all of us here on Earth want to experience the invisible dimension, we miss it while we're here. Some are aware of that, some are not. So, when a person uses drugs what he/she wants basically is to experience a higher state of elevation. Why God created drugs? Well, we believe that God didn't create LSD, for instance, but he allowed it to be developed for good use - medicinal use, for example. But man was given what we call "Free Will", and he is free to make good or bad use of what we have here. A knife, for example, can be a tool for a dedicated worker. But it also can be a deadly weapon. It's the beholder that makes the difference. As for your question on pleasure and pain, yes, we believe there could be pleasure without pain. But we are far from appreciating that.

 

As Tatsu wrote, each to his own. That' so true. What we know is that the ones who made more mistakes will take a longer path to elevation, but everyone is entitled to a better life someday. I don't say that if my friend is a heavy drinker he is wrong, if that's what makes him happy. Free Will rules our lives.

 

Posted Image

 

Bruce Lee is my most influential philosopher. I am a little biased, and Taoism has always made sense to me.

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Time_Trap    15

As Tatsu wrote, each to his own. That' so true. What we know is that the ones who made more mistakes will take a longer path to elevation, but everyone is entitled to a better life someday. I don't say that if my friend is a heavy drinker he is wrong, if that's what makes him happy. Free Will rules our lives.

Is it really free will or illusion of free will ? Are you in for some hardcore determinism ?

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Stardust    0

How does Switzerland perceive drugs?

 

I find your posts extremely passionate, but also a little confusing. However I do find myself agreeing with lots of your views. Anyhoo, I love parties and the almost-spiritual feelings I have experienced through tripping and pushing the boundaries. I also love exercise and practising exercises such as yoga and tai chi to balance the extremes of drugs. I love Bill Hicks and I totally agree that some drugs are just great! In spite of moderate use these days and heavy use earlier in my life I feel that I am as "with it", or even more so, than earlier. I am studying a for a bachelors (in a foreign language) and totally managing to keep up to pace.

 

I am from South Africa but have been living in Switzerland for 6 years now. South Africa is heavily affected by heavy drug use these days and the mentality there is backwards and mirrors the US perception. In comparison to South Africa, I feel that Switzerland has a very advanced attitude and perception of drugs, in spite of them being illegal. Trance parties here feel to me to be exactly as they should be: free of threats from the law, wild and unashamedly about getting out of it by dancing, having fun, and errm, consuming lots of psychedelics. As Tatsu has mentioned, junkies receive support, counselling, and where necessary, methadone instead of harsh jail sentences. The attitude is that education and assistance, rather than punishment, is the way to heal. At most trance parties here there are voluntary organisations that set up stands offering information on drugs, pill testing, and a place to chill out if stuck in a paranoia inducing bender. Once at a party I was at in South Africa there was a raid by the police. The police and army rocked up in large numbers with semi automatics and switched off the music and searched everyone for "weapons". It fucking sucked. I have not been to that many parties here but I have never ever felt threatened in that way. Where police do show up they seem to be concerned with making sure that people are not driving while intoxicated, not making too much noise or that things are peaceful. All the parties have been to have been really peaceful and it seems that (personal speculation on the way here) the authorities realize that trance parties are really not a threat to "law and order" and that the voluntary organizations providing info are helping to reduce the harm of the substance use and so turn a bit of a blind eye. I think it's really cool. I think it's a vision of the future.

 

Society is very very slowly making advances toward some kind of change. At least, that's what I am hoping for.

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Sideffect...    12

I am from South Africa but have been living in Switzerland for 6 years now. South Africa is heavily affected by heavy drug use these days and the mentality there is backwards and mirrors the US perception. In comparison to South Africa, I feel that Switzerland has a very advanced attitude and perception of drugs, in spite of them being illegal. Trance parties here feel to me to be exactly as they should be: free of threats from the law, wild and unashamedly about getting out of it by dancing, having fun, and errm, consuming lots of psychedelics. As Tatsu has mentioned, junkies receive support, counselling, and where necessary, methadone instead of harsh jail sentences. The attitude is that education and assistance, rather than punishment, is the way to heal. At most trance parties here there are voluntary organisations that set up stands offering information on drugs, pill testing, and a place to chill out if stuck in a paranoia inducing bender. Once at a party I was at in South Africa there was a raid by the police. The police and army rocked up in large numbers with semi automatics and switched off the music and searched everyone for "weapons". It fucking sucked. I have not been to that many parties here but I have never ever felt threatened in that way. Where police do show up they seem to be concerned with making sure that people are not driving while intoxicated, not making too much noise or that things are peaceful. All the parties have been to have been really peaceful and it seems that (personal speculation on the way here) the authorities realize that trance parties are really not a threat to "law and order" and that the voluntary organizations providing info are helping to reduce the harm of the substance use and so turn a bit of a blind eye. I think it's really cool. I think it's a vision of the future.

 

Society is very very slowly making advances toward some kind of change. At least, that's what I am hoping for.

 

Great post!

Well belgium trance parties are more like in Switzerland according to your post.

Although their could be more "info" about drugs and pill testing from the organisations or government. But we do have a great health care system.

That provides enough services to people who get addicted to drugs. Drugs will always be a a part of the world, if people want it or not.

So better deal with it in a proper way. South Africa is preciously not doing a good job. That's regrettable!

 

 

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I find your posts extremely passionate, but also a little confusing. However I do find myself agreeing with lots of your views. Anyhow, I love parties and the almost-spiritual feelings I have experienced through tripping and pushing the boundaries. I also love exercise and practicing exercises such as yoga and tai chi to balance the extremes of drugs. I love Bill Hicks and I totally agree that some drugs are just great! In spite of moderate use these days and heavy use earlier in my life I feel that I am as "with it", or even more so, than earlier. I am studying a for a bachelors (in a foreign language) and totally managing to keep up to pace...

Thank you for your eloquence and honesty. I confuse myself, daily. I find that these forums are a wonderful opportunity to work through the confusion. This psyte(site), I find to be atypical of other social websites. Unlike many forums that are overly techie or impersonal, I find psynews members to show more compassion, intelligence, and insight. Most importantly, I feel I am able to be vulnerable. Please watch this video it is about vulnerability and is outstanding! (I can't seem to get it to embed :wacko:)

 

http-~~-//www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability.html

 

Trance parties here feel to me to be exactly as they should be: free of threats from the law, wild and unashamedly about getting out of it by dancing, having fun, and errm, consuming lots of psychedelics.

Ahhh...that is what I call the Tao of Life. That freedom and passion and realization that you feel, I wish it were infinite. Do it for as long as possible. Because, how it should be and how it becomes is only a matter of time. I remember the feeling you describe, the best part of life. Every shred of your being knows this is our purpose. Amazingly, this knowledge is constantly tested and some people start to doubt it. And, eventually they surrender to the notion that they we were not thinking clearly. This is the function of our society, today. Ironically, it is these moments of absolute clarity that are so obvious are also dismissed as trivial. That ignorance and denial does not bother me. The whole drug-blaming rhetoric supporting this ignorance is and absolute abuse on our humanity. "You were just high, you don't know what your talking about." This dismissive and irreparably destructive thinking is what pisses me off. It pisses me off because the reason I know what I am talking about,is because I was high. Immediately discrediting someone because they were high is so utterly moronic. It is boggling that most people, even drug users, speak this way. If they say you were drunk, you don't know what you are talking about...I can believe that. But, to lump all drugs as having the effects of alcohol, bullshit. Anyway, I don't want to max out the servers by writing about this. And, what you are feeling is much more important. Your experience with parties, I hope everyone has the same.

 

 

At most trance parties here there are voluntary organizations that set up stands offering information on drugs, pill testing, and a place to chill out if stuck in a paranoia inducing bender. Once at a party I was at in South Africa there was a raid by the police. The police and army rocked up in large numbers with semi automatics and switched off the music and searched everyone for "weapons". It fucking sucked. I have not been to that many parties here but I have never ever felt threatened in that way...

It's pretty disgusting and that Gestapo-like raid is, again the function of our society. As Bill Hicks chanted, "You are free...to do as we tell you." I had a similiar experienc at a rave outside of L.A. There was a Sheriff helicopter and no one could hear or even could believe they were serious, but the teargas that was used, quickly dissolved any illusion.

 

...Where police do show up they seem to be concerned with making sure that people are not driving while intoxicated, not making too much noise or that things are peaceful. All the parties have been to have been really peaceful and it seems that (personal speculation on the way here) the authorities realize that trance parties are really not a threat to "law and order" and that the voluntary organizations providing info are helping to reduce the harm of the substance use and so turn a bit of a blind eye. I think it's really cool. I think it's a vision of the future...

...Society is very very slowly making advances toward some kind of change. At least, that's what I am hoping for.

I just hope that change is of our value system and not of our destruction

 

Great post!

Well belgium trance parties are more like in Switzerland according to your post.

Although their could be more "info" about drugs and pill testing from the organizations or government. But we do have a great health care system.

That provides enough services to people who get addicted to drugs. Drugs will always be a a part of the world, if people want it or not.

So better deal with it in a proper way. South Africa is preciously not doing a good job. That's regrettable!

 

I don't think that more info about drugs and pill testing from government or organizations is a good idea. The government for obvious reasons. Did you ever encounter that organization that would have a table at a party and they would test your XTC to see if it was genuine? dancesafe.org . Not really as altruistic as you imagined. More like capitalist schweinehunds.

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Sideffect...    12

I don't think that more info about drugs and pill testing from government or organizations is a good idea. The government for obvious reasons. Did you ever encounter that organization that would have a table at a party and they would test your XTC to see if it was genuine? dancesafe.org . Not really as altruistic as you imagined. More like capitalist schweinehunds.

 

In that case there is something wrong with how the idea is organized, but the idea imo remains good.

They used to do it in Holland (do not know if they still do) which is only a 2 hours drive.

I believe it pricks the illusion of an xtc tablet, the kind of "I don't know what's in it, so I can't care"

 

But indeed there are a lot different opinions considering this idea... Maybe it's already been studied...

 

 

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Tatsu    30

I don't think that more info about drugs and pill testing from government or organizations is a good idea. The government for obvious reasons. Did you ever encounter that organization that would have a table at a party and they would test your XTC to see if it was genuine? dancesafe.org . Not really as altruistic as you imagined. More like capitalist schweinehunds.

 

I'm not familiar with the organisation you posted and the site seems to be way out of date. But I can say that the organisations that are doing pill tests in Switzerland (legally allowed from the governement) do a damn great job. Nobody ever encountered any problems with them and they are more attending underground parties and not only big raves. So calling them capitalistit schweinehunds seesm unappropriate for me.

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Stardust    0

Although their could be more "info" about drugs and pill testing from the organisations or government. But we do have a great health care system.

That provides enough services to people who get addicted to drugs. Drugs will always be a a part of the world, if people want it or not.

So better deal with it in a proper way. South Africa is preciously not doing a good job. That's regrettable!

 

Well belgium trance parties are more like in Switzerland according to your post.

 

Well, in fairness South Africa has many problems. One being that good health care is too expensive for many people. I think that South Africa just does not have the luxury (as european countries do) for considering how things could be handled any other way. That being said, that was the only party I was ever at which was raided. It was mostly just a joke. After searching everyone the cops pissed off after a while and some people I know went walking around and found loads of goodies that people had chucked on the ground in a panic. Ha! If only I had thought of that.

 

I really hope to get on down to belgium for some chips, beer and a good party sometime. :) Sounds good.

 

Thank you for your eloquence and honesty. I confuse myself, daily. I find that these forums are a wonderful opportunity to work through the confusion. This psyte(site), I find to be atypical of other social websites. Unlike many forums that are overly techie or impersonal, I find psynews members to show more compassion, intelligence, and insight. Most importantly, I feel I am able to be vulnerable. Please watch this video it is about vulnerability and is outstanding! (I can't seem to get it to embed :wacko:)

 

http-~~-//www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability.html

 

 

So you're kidding right? About the eloquence that is. :P Thanks for the link, I promise to check out the full video when I have a bit of time (I am preparing for exams now).

 

Ahhh...that is what I call the Tao of Life. That freedom and passion and realization that you feel, I wish it were infinite. Do it for as long as possible. Because, how it should be and how it becomes is only a matter of time. I remember the feeling you describe, the best part of life. Every shred of your being knows this is our purpose. Amazingly, this knowledge is constantly tested and some people start to doubt it. And, eventually they surrender to the notion that they we were not thinking clearly. This is the function of our society, today. Ironically, it is these moments of absolute clarity that are so obvious are also dismissed as trivial. That ignorance and denial does not bother me. The whole drug-blaming rhetoric supporting this ignorance is and absolute abuse on our humanity. "You were just high, you don't know what your talking about." This dismissive and irreparably destructive thinking is what pisses me off. It pisses me off because the reason I know what I am talking about,is because I was high. Immediately discrediting someone because they were high is so utterly moronic. It is boggling that most people, even drug users, speak this way. If they say you were drunk, you don't know what you are talking about...I can believe that. But, to lump all drugs as having the effects of alcohol, bullshit. Anyway, I don't want to max out the servers by writing about this. And, what you are feeling is much more important. Your experience with parties, I hope everyone has the same.

 

 

I just hope that change is of our value system and not of our destruction

 

I also wish that everyone could experience the wonder too. Don't wish it were infinite. It is infinite. Have you ever read the wheel of time series? In it there is a race of people called the "Aiel", a hardy desert dwelling people who believe that "life is a dream from which we must awake". My own senses, intuition, and experiences (also with hallucinogens) tell me this must be true. If everyone could understand this wouldn't it be great? It's just a fuckin' ride people! :)

 

It's pretty disgusting and that Gestapo-like raid is, again the function of our society. As Bill Hicks chanted, "You are free...to do as we tell you." I had a similiar experienc at a rave outside of L.A. There was a Sheriff helicopter and no one could hear or even could believe they were serious, but the teargas that was used, quickly dissolved any illusion.

 

Nasty. At least the cops in SA don't find it necessary to use teargas!

 

I don't think that more info about drugs and pill testing from government or organizations is a good idea. The government for obvious reasons. Did you ever encounter that organization that would have a table at a party and they would test your XTC to see if it was genuine? dancesafe.org . Not really as altruistic as you imagined. More like capitalist schweinehunds.

 

As Tatsu previously mentioned, the organizations here in Switzerland are super. I know that one of them is a non-profit organization. It's run by volunteers and is completely independent of the government. The world needs more such organizations to spread good intentions and information around (psychedelic) drugs so that those who have only ever learned bullshit propaganda can start to learn more of the truth. I actually would really like to volunteer, but my studying commitments are in the way of that right now.

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In that case there is something wrong with how the idea is organized, but the idea imo remains good.

They used to do it in Holland (do not know if they still do) which is only a 2 hours drive.

I believe it pricks the illusion of an xtc tablet, the kind of "I don't know what's in it, so I can't care"

 

But indeed there are a lot different opinions considering this idea... Maybe it's already been studied...

 

 

 

Yes, I think its a good idea. But my problem is that we actually need that service. That means that people value money more than themselves and of course, everyone. I never bought E form a random person -- only on the honeymoon. The early 90's in the SF Area were serendipitous. It was like a new flower power had evolved. We were Generation X. X was perfect to describe our multifaceted, unknown, and dubious future., we were the Dead Heads of Techno, but we we did not attempt to mask our cause with dreadlocks, activism, and patchouli oil. We grew up watching a society of lies.

 

As society that we were taught to pledge the flag, and freedom of religion. We were taught that capitalism and democracy are the best choice because we were the most free and affluent. We were taught that Drugs are bad, yet cigarettes and alcohol (killers of more than any other drug) are not drugs. That alcoholism was a disease and the cigarette companies lied to us. We were raised on beer is good, even good for you. If you drink one a day. and we are bombarded with beer and woman. And told, "Just Say No," by Nancy Reagan. We were, somehow drafted into a War on Drugs. That is anything but cigarettes and alcohol.

 

We did not take this mockery of our humanity, lightly. We gathered for War, but the battle was one of the Mind, just like the War on Drugs. And as the War on Drugs, we were unaware of any battle. We united. We were the children of the baby boomers, we were the future. What a load of bollocks....we were there to get fucked up and listen to music never heard on sound systems never mobilized. We did not worry about if the E was good, it was the best. There was no vice cops, there was no vice:

The more prohibitions you have, the less virtuous people will be. Try to make people moral, and you lay the groundwork for vice.

 

Lao Tzu (c.604 - 531 B.C.)

 

 

. We wanted to push the limits of our experience. It was about the best. And the best cost money, Our parents paid the bill, as usual. At one point, my dad, literally was going to invest in a Rave.

 

That's when things started to get weird. The bad trip, the fear seethed in. We wanted a silent investor, no commercialism. No capitalizing on our souls. And, you got it, the raves got more publicized, the fewer venues were available, the decline of our purpose, we witnessed. We did not gather to fight the power. We gathered to and had the most underground raves in the most commercial venues. Everyone made decisions based on love, not fear.

 

I know it's sounds schmaltzy, but I know that this was a global phenomenon. It was so new and so natural. And we all want it to last forever but it doesn't and when you need an outside organization to test your drugs for authenticity, you have shifted to fear. You can't trust the person that you got it from. Your not at a rave, anymore, you are at a concert. And the star is DJ Tiesto. :lol:

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Sideffect...    12

Yes, I think its a good idea. But my problem is that we actually need that service. That means that people value money more than themselves and of course, everyone. I never bought E form a random person -- only on the honeymoon. The early 90's in the SF Area were serendipitous. It was like a new flower power had evolved. We were Generation X. X was perfect to describe our multifaceted, unknown, and dubious future., we were the Dead Heads of Techno, but we we did not attempt to mask our cause with dreadlocks, activism, and patchouli oil. We grew up watching a society of lies.

 

As society that we were taught to pledge the flag, and freedom of religion. We were taught that capitalism and democracy are the best choice because we were the most free and affluent. We were taught that Drugs are bad, yet cigarettes and alcohol (killers of more than any other drug) are not drugs. That alcoholism was a disease and the cigarette companies lied to us. We were raised on beer is good, even good for you. If you drink one a day. and we are bombarded with beer and woman. And told, "Just Say No," by Nancy Reagan. We were, somehow drafted into a War on Drugs. That is anything but cigarettes and alcohol.

 

We did not take this mockery of our humanity, lightly. We gathered for War, but the battle was one of the Mind, just like the War on Drugs. And as the War on Drugs, we were unaware of any battle. We united. We were the children of the baby boomers, we were the future. What a load of bollocks....we were there to get fucked up and listen to music never heard on sound systems never mobilized. We did not worry about if the E was good, it was the best. There was no vice cops, there was no vice:

 

That seems very general, many people were raised like that. I would not project it in a such a theatrical way.

 

You are good in using many words to describe something common. You should go in politics (kidding Posted Image)

 

 

I'll give you an answer in your language, a bit abstract Posted Image.

 

At first I did not like the 'abstractness' in your post, but after a while, it's has changed Posted Image

 

I understand what you are trying to say. And there is off course a certain truth in your post that we can't deny,

but ask people around in the community and 75% will show a defensive behavior of non existence.

They don't want to be aware, no being percipient is also an easy choice of not having to deal with certain matters.

Some of us, like in each generation, has it's percent, tend, not to flow by, and look around, conclude considering what they can see.

But reading your post It seems like you had no choice, and society is the one to blame.

As an individual of that same society sometimes that is an easy line of thinking...

But just like the rest it's not good to make your train of thoughts superior to the existent.

Try to participate with both, combining them, using the best of all in a consensus is imo the future.

Otherwise it's just shifting the problem!

And shifting the problem is what we have been doing for a thousand generations on macro level!

From one main culture to another, to conquer, erase and start all over again.

Without using the already existing profit of the earlier/previous culture...

From macro to micro level it is possible...

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The only substances historically used by Tantrics in India are alcohol and datura, so I don't know where Gil gets the LSD use from - it's certainly not his religion. Cannabis is used as well by many a sadhu, but it's not a part of ritual. Anyway, it's not my place to pass judgement on Gil... the whole "ancient ritual for modern times" things seems phony to me, though, because the ancient rituals are still alive and don't need updating. However, since I've never met the guy, I try not to pass much judgement on him.

 

As for the Shaman thing... I don't know where you get your statistics for India, but Shamanism as a phenomenon really applies to south American, Native American, and Mongolian religion - India's religious figures aren't shamans, and although some Tantric paths bear a resemblance to it, they're a different beast altogether.

 

And as for taking a new name when becoming a Sadhu, one does do that, but in my experience, those born outside of India frequently have a hard time getting their western friends to call them by their new name. Without getting into specifics, I will say that I know a few people who were born in america and "went through the rigors" of being a Sadhu (or an Aghori, as the case may be) and still go by their birth name when interacting with most other Americans. I won't judge Gil for that, personally. (Hell, I got a name when I took my initiation as a spiritual aspirant, but I can't get people to use it, whether I like it or not.)

 

How are you Jason Panandani aka Flashback. (That's a cool stage name for you because your track sounds like Hallucinogen, yet twisted because you don't do psychdedlics but its you-- everyone please check out this guy's track on Sound cloud:

 

I was surprised...and maybe I am reading this incorrectly. This from the source that Wikipedia cites on the topic of Sadhu:

Those who follow the fast track, mostly men, are the sadhus, the 'holy men' of India. For thousands of years they have been around. Once they must have been more numerous, but even today there are still four to five million sadhus, constituting about half a percent of the total population

---Dolf Hartsuiker. Sadhus and Yogis of India

 

 

Oh and the LSD he uses is confused with Soma because it is actually "Electric Kool-Aid:" a mix of rum/vodka and fruit juice with a sheet of blotter (100 squares) or Liquid LSD into a big punch bowl...one helluva a prom.

 

 

 

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