Penzoline Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 why a post i made with emoticons deleted???? Probably because it contributed nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysium Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 I'm not talking about the specific sounds - they're all using synthesis, after all - I'm talking about their general aesthetic - their "sound." Sorry if the translation doesn't come over very well. What I mean, for example, is that extremely dry and crisp aesthetic they had that didn't depend on a lot of reverb to give it atmosphere, like with the artists you listed (who I like a whole lot more than IM, BTW). Their technique was enough to support their unique aesthetic, and that's enough to get people excited. It's a very obvious difference to my ears, but perhaps not to everybody's. What was obvious was the stir they created in the late '90s, one that lasted several albums, unlike, say, Skazi, or other artists I could mention but won't. I totally get what you mean but when I listen to music, analyze it and also judge it I look and listen beyond the production (which of course is also important but IMO not at all important enough to call someone groundbreaking). I listen to the way they composed and in this case also reused old proven and used techniques in the arrangement and I listened to the melodies, bass lines etc, and yes also the lead sounds used. And my concluding was and always will be that I heard nothing that could justify calling them groundbreaking or unique. As I said I heard a lot of copying in melodies, lead sounds etc, Groundbreaking and unique is to me someone who re-invent the wheel in music (and not many do that if any). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotwang Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Well nothing is wrong with my ears except for a mild tinnitus. I am stunned that you actually write this nonsense as taste indeed is taste and that I never said anyone of you are wrong in thinking the way you do. I merely express that I believe that the majority of IM fans base their opinion on the fact most of them (not all and I am not saying you) was not part of the scene prior to IM's release (some of them if not the majority probably got into the scene due to IM's release long after it was released after some of their friends recommended it as being the best "s**" ever - again based on that they did not have any knowledge about prior releases in this scene). That describes me pretty accurately; 1200 Mics was the first psytrance I heard, IM the second. FWIW I thought they were both great when I first heard them, but whereas I've come to think of 1200 Mics as being pretty mediocre and uninspired, the early IM stuff still sounds as good to as it always did, and also sounds worlds apart from three of the four inspirations you listed (I'm not familiar with the work of Tandu). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insejn Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Well nothing is wrong with my ears except for a mild tinnitus. I am stunned that you actually write this nonsense as taste indeed is taste and that I never said anyone of you are wrong in thinking the way you do. I merely express that I believe that the majority of IM fans base their opinion on the fact most of them (not all and I am not saying you) was not part of the scene prior to IM's release (some of them if not the majority probably got into the scene due to IM's release long after it was released after some of their friends recommended it as being the best "s**" ever - again based on that they did not have any knowledge about prior releases in this scene). Funny thing is I have never heard any of the artists or DJs I used to play with and work with mention IM as unique or groundbreaking. So a lot of IM's fans base their judgement on what they head first and that's all OK. But that does not mean something is wrong with my ears or that my opinion is less valid than yours. Ye, that was uncalled for. Didn't really mean it like that. I didn't see your post about people not being in the scene prior to IM before I posted mine and I agree with that. Still, I think the vast majority of people would recognize the early IM sound as unique at that time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysium Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Still, I think the vast majority of people would recognize the early IM sound as unique at that time. I do not question most or that many people entering the scene around 1998 + see them as unique and that to them IM really are unique (Just as i thought and still think Depeche Mode was unique and groundbreaking whereas the older electronic music freaks thought i was nuts). And as I said it's perfect OK with me that people think IM is unique even though I do not agree But looking back at the people I hang out with (the ones setting the tone as DJs and artists at the time) I did not hear any of them mention IM as being unique or groundbreaking. I guess that's the point here. OK bed time for me. Have a great night all and really I enjoy this debate where we all debate our different opinions without fighting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ma05683 Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Probably because it contributed nothing. really??? its a logical reason ,indeed nice moderation :blush: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Procyon Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 Just to make my point clearer: I did not like IM, not because they seemed to copy somebody else's formula, but I really thought their tracks were bad written. Copy or not, they sounded really cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Pandanandi Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 As a fledgling goa producer, I'd like to give my input. The scene is lacking in "weird." We've got all these musicians making Astral Dimension Hunab-Ku-5... but where's someone building off of Eat Static? Darshan? Hallucinogen? Prana... GNOTR... Deviant Electronics... 'MOK Systems... etc. All that diversity is just lacking completely. Those are *my* personal influences, but sometimes I feel like I'm the only one. I'd like some producers to prove me wrong on that. Stop writing in phrygian and phrygian dominant. Write something in natural minor for a change. Use some really syrupy acid lines. Use more acid-type stuff in general. Even if there were some artists producing that kind of stuff... what labels are out there to release it? Cronomi is known for releasing some 'darker' stuff, but even then, a lot of their material falls into the Etnica/Pleiadians side of things... DJ Inada said to me once that he really enjoys Etnica type stuff. That's cool. I respect Cronomi and love them to death... but I'm not sure the scene needs more Etnica-wannabes. Hell, I don't even have a problem with wannabes... IMHO, everyone's a wannabe of someone else, whether they know it or not. But I want a Slinky Wizard wannabe, damnit. And if there was that mythical Slinky Wizard styled project... like I said, what label would release it? Moreover: back in 'the day', vinyl singles were a huge part of the goa scene. Obviously, things have changed and vinyl is less relevant to today's goa trance scene... but instead we have digital singles via Itunes, Beatport, Juno music, etc. Digital singles are the future, seriously. Look at the success that ektoplasm is enjoying... and frequently, they put out small EPs rather than albums. I'm not sure if a market exists to purchase digital singles via Beatport, for example, but that market could be cultivated. The full album format is not dead and will never die in our scene, but we have in front of us a wonderful way to return a singles-based market like the 1990s, and few of our labels are taking advantage of that. That depresses me. Iboga bombards me every two weeks via facebook with an announcement of a new digital single, but they're releasing a very mainstream sound. Taking into consideration the difference in listeners... there's no reason we couldn't release singles every 4-6 months. If you do that over time, goa will gain a presence via Beatport, and things might change. tl;dr: Needs more weird. Needs more acid. Needs labels that keep up with the distribution patterns that are proven to work in the modern electronic industry. Just my two cents, and my personal opinion. :3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotwang Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 ^ Good post, I agree that most new-school Goa artists sound to have a narrow range of influences compared to what was around in the early days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Procyon Posted May 14, 2011 Author Share Posted May 14, 2011 As a fledgling goa producer, I'd like to give my input. The scene is lacking in "weird." We've got all these musicians making Astral Dimension Hunab-Ku-5... but where's someone building off of Eat Static? Darshan? Hallucinogen? Prana... GNOTR... Deviant Electronics... 'MOK Systems... etc. All that diversity is just lacking completely. Those are *my* personal influences, but sometimes I feel like I'm the only one. I'd like some producers to prove me wrong on that. Stop writing in phrygian and phrygian dominant. Write something in natural minor for a change. Use some really syrupy acid lines. Use more acid-type stuff in general. Even if there were some artists producing that kind of stuff... what labels are out there to release it? Cronomi is known for releasing some 'darker' stuff, but even then, a lot of their material falls into the Etnica/Pleiadians side of things... DJ Inada said to me once that he really enjoys Etnica type stuff. That's cool. I respect Cronomi and love them to death... but I'm not sure the scene needs more Etnica-wannabes. Hell, I don't even have a problem with wannabes... IMHO, everyone's a wannabe of someone else, whether they know it or not. But I want a Slinky Wizard wannabe, damnit. And if there was that mythical Slinky Wizard styled project... like I said, what label would release it? Moreover: back in 'the day', vinyl singles were a huge part of the goa scene. Obviously, things have changed and vinyl is less relevant to today's goa trance scene... but instead we have digital singles via Itunes, Beatport, Juno music, etc. Digital singles are the future, seriously. Look at the success that ektoplasm is enjoying... and frequently, they put out small EPs rather than albums. I'm not sure if a market exists to purchase digital singles via Beatport, for example, but that market could be cultivated. The full album format is not dead and will never die in our scene, but we have in front of us a wonderful way to return a singles-based market like the 1990s, and few of our labels are taking advantage of that. That depresses me. Iboga bombards me every two weeks via facebook with an announcement of a new digital single, but they're releasing a very mainstream sound. Taking into consideration the difference in listeners... there's no reason we couldn't release singles every 4-6 months. If you do that over time, goa will gain a presence via Beatport, and things might change. tl;dr: Needs more weird. Needs more acid. Needs labels that keep up with the distribution patterns that are proven to work in the modern electronic industry. Just my two cents, and my personal opinion. :3 +1000000000 Your analysis couldn't be more efficient than that. Keep doing your work, the scene needs more people who think like you. By the way, do you have any tracks to show us? It would be great to hear something that is trying to sound different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Pandanandi Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 +1000000000 Your analysis couldn't be more efficient than that. Keep doing your work, the scene needs more people who think like you. By the way, do you have any tracks to show us? It would be great to hear something that is trying to sound different. I've spent most of the last six years making ambient music cause I was disheartened with the way psy was going. I grew a pair and decided to make psy the way I wanted it to sound come hell or high water about 8 months ago... so I don't have many tracks done. 5 finished, and only 3 that I like. Final mixes aren't done on any of them, just composition. If you'd like to hear a VERY VERY rough draft of my newest one... there's a thread for it over in Music Promotion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veracohr Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 .....Needs more weird. Needs more acid. Needs labels that keep up with the distribution patterns that are proven to work in the modern electronic industry. Just my two cents, and my personal opinion. :3 I get what you're saying, and agree with it to a point. "Weird" can indeed give artists a more unique sound, but it doesn't necessarily make the music better. It can, but weird stuff, in general, doesn't make better music. One still has to be able to write good music. I'll point to the example of Blue Planet Corporation. I don't consider them to have much weirdness, but they wrote quality melodic music. I also like Dimension 5's Transdimensional a lot too, but it isn't particularly weird. While artists like GNOTR and Hallucinogen stand out in part for having a bit of weirdness, there's also something to be said for music that mainly tries to be trancey (and, of course, good and unique). I think it's probably just easier for an artist to stand out when their music has some aspect that is relatively unheard of before in the genre. That doesn't mean another artist doesn't make good music just because they're not trying to stand out. To summarize, my opinion is: there's nothing wrong with quality music that isn't trying to be "WHOA! So out there!" Take a pot, throw in some "whoa so out there", some "quality made familiarity" and some "rehashed crap", and you've got yourself a Real-World Music Genre Stew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Pandanandi Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 I get what you're saying, and agree with it to a point. "Weird" can indeed give artists a more unique sound, but it doesn't necessarily make the music better. It can, but weird stuff, in general, doesn't make better music. One still has to be able to write good music. I'll point to the example of Blue Planet Corporation. I don't consider them to have much weirdness, but they wrote quality melodic music. I also like Dimension 5's Transdimensional a lot too, but it isn't particularly weird. While artists like GNOTR and Hallucinogen stand out in part for having a bit of weirdness, there's also something to be said for music that mainly tries to be trancey (and, of course, good and unique). I think it's probably just easier for an artist to stand out when their music has some aspect that is relatively unheard of before in the genre. That doesn't mean another artist doesn't make good music just because they're not trying to stand out. To summarize, my opinion is: there's nothing wrong with quality music that isn't trying to be "WHOA! So out there!" Take a pot, throw in some "whoa so out there", some "quality made familiarity" and some "rehashed crap", and you've got yourself a Real-World Music Genre Stew. You're absolutely right. All I was getting at is that I've heard 10 imitations of Transdimensional and absolutely nothing that made me think Geomantik, Rock Bitch Mafia or Science of the Gods. edit: nor am I making a value judgment saying that "weird" albums are better than straight melodic albums. I'm just emphasizing how very little of the former sound currently exists. What's better than what is a value judgment dependent on the individual listener. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(OM)Open_Mind Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 I think there are enought smart guys in this topic, who can bring that label into reality. Mars, can you for example make sub-label for weirdies singles? And what's going on with resucrrection of Flying Rhino? Any news? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Pandanandi Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 I think there are enought smart guys in this topic, who can bring that label into reality. Mars, can you for example make sub-label for weirdies singles? I'll freaking do it if I can find a few other artists to release, damnit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(OM)Open_Mind Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 I'll freaking do it if I can find a few other artists to release, damnit. np more acid, less rest go go go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Pandanandi Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Also, as much as I'd love to start a weirdo goa label like Matsuri or something, the scene could REALLY use a label that isn't over-specialized. Suntrip is mostly known for floaty stuff. Cronomi is known for heavier stuff. Sita is known for nitzo. Why can't we just have a Dragonfly or Blue-Room style label that releases good stuff regardless of sub-subgenre? Just an observation.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Matta Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 I appreciate your attitude and idealism, Jason. I think it's a complex and simple issue at the same time. The people promoting the music want music they can believe in, which means the music itself has to strike some balance between newness and accessibility. Too much newness/weirdness and people won't listen. Too much accessibility and it's cheese, which eliminates the discriminating listeners. Matsuri's music was really great, but even that stuff was too weird to be sustainable for long. Same could be said for Blue Room, I think. So ultimately we get down to the intentions of the artist, and then, taken to the extreme, the talent of the artist. The most talented artist, I think, can make the most crazy music but still be accessible by a large sample of people, which will make music promoters want to dedicate themselves to it. And then there's the whole issue of labels needing a niche to be marketable. I don't think a weird, eclectic label is as marketable as one whose sound you can depend on, although the former has worked in the past. But I hear you, and agree with you. Warp Records is a great example of a successful electronic label that had a fairly eclectic sound from the beginning. But they were also very new across the board, and as such were kind of a niche already, and also had some great graphics to back their stuff up. Anyway, complicated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(OM)Open_Mind Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Just my 5 cents. How about Cronomi and latest Artha Album... Many goa lovers don't understand/accept this sound. Not other mainstream sound lovers either. Isn't it pretty experemental Hallucinogen-like album to you? And it was released. P.S. Maybe it's offtopic, but it is worth to be mentioned. In psy-chill direction look to gliese-581c label Space Formings have very strong trippy power And it's free! http://www.ektoplazm.com/2010/space-forming http://www.ektoplazm.com/2011/space-forming-vol-2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veracohr Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Just my 5 cents. How about Cronomi and latest Artha Album... Many goa lovers don't understand/accept this sound. Not other mainstream sound lovers either. Really? I guess I haven't really paid attention. There was a topic started about how great Influencing Dreams is, but it ended up with more mentions of other artists. Still, I think I see that album standing the test of time, at least within it's style. I've got some albums released in the last few years that I was super-excited about at first, then they kind of diminished. The Artha album is not one of them. Admittedly it hasn't been around for many years yet, but still I think it will last as an example of great music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(OM)Open_Mind Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Veracohr why you take it so personal? I love this album too. I'm talking about it's more twisted and experimental than other releases nowadays. So if you have twisted music with top-notch quality, maybe Cronomi will release it. Should give a try. I don't think they willl say "you are not etnica-wanna-be! No way we will release you, so gtfo biatch" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veracohr Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Veracohr why you take it so personal? I love this album too. I'm talking about it's more twisted and experimental than other releases nowadays. So if you have twisted music with top-notch quality, maybe Cronomi will release it. Should give a try. I don't think they willl say "you are not etnica-wanna-be! No way we will release you, so gtfo biatch" Er......I was trying to agree with you. You said many people don't like the sound, and I was under the impression lots of people liked it. Did I not come across that way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(OM)Open_Mind Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Veracohr I saw a lot opinions in style "What the heck, I expect old school goa from Artha, but it is something weird, free EP is much better" in local psytrance community. So I decide some goa people can't accept this kind of experimental approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Pandanandi Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 I liked the Artha album and EP and it's definitely something that we need more of in this scene, although I think it sounds a bit too clean and polished - that's just personal taste on my part. I like things to be a tad bit more lofi. So much modern trance just sounds clinical and sterilized. As for Erta Ale... great release, and yes, weird, but there's still something missing that I can't put my finger on. Perhaps it's just a personal taste thing again. Anyway, Cronomi still isn't playing the digital distribution game, so that only solves *half* the problem :\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(OM)Open_Mind Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 I liked the Artha album and EP and it's definitely something that we need more of in this scene, although I think it sounds a bit too clean and polished - that's just personal taste on my part. I like things to be a tad bit more lofi. So much modern trance just sounds clinical and sterilized. Agreed at 100%. I have used tape recorder in last released track to make sound less clean/sterile. In past was era of hardware synths with VCO or at least VCF, and analogue mixers, which sound better to my taste. But there was damn noise.... Now is era of VA/software synths which sound great too and more capable of sound creation, but don't have that warmth, depth and liveness of old analogue gear. And VA synths introduce aliasing - unpleasant digital noise. I mean for example fat warmth sound of Astral Projection. Where is it in nowadays releases??? Another thing is mixing entirely in DAW (even in so nice, as Logic) - is more flat then on analogue mixer. I checked it millions times and now i'm absolutely sure in it. I mean real deepness of scene like in Hallucinogen tracks. Where is it now?? Nowadays mastering compared to old-school make highs too bright, yeah it's shiny but not warm at all... But it's just aspects of sound. OP is more concentrated on lack of ideas and creativity. And it's more important. I can listen creative 8bit/tracker 4 channel music and enjoy it more, then stupid uninspired music played on moog voyager and moog taurus and recorded on tape. Where are creativity? We can describe let's say 30 common sounds, used in neogoa. And that's all. Where are ultra-wicked sounds, that we just can't express them in words? And there are a lot of undiscovered names in goa world. Take a listen to this guy (KLOP) for example. His stuff is unusual and that's so cool. Labels must release more stuff like this. http://www.sendspace.com/file/r5051a About digital distribution - hell yeah! In era of digital distribution singles/EPs will be more effective media than albums. It's my last message in this topic. Why I am getting involved in this, don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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