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Trance, dance, philosophy and the ego


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I'm going to ask the same question i asked in isratrance so don't kill me :P

 

seriously, this is something that Ive been really thinking about today at work because of a discussion going on through e-mail with my college buddies.

 

My friends don't believe me when i say that trance dance is an effective tool to realize other states of consciousness , the true pure self and for lessening of the ego.

 

They say its all about enjoying the music and it ends at that. their reasoning is that you might introspect a little about whatever it is that one philosophizes about , we do nothing the next day what we say in those altered states of consciousness

 

so my question is :

 

Does one come out a better person after an eye opening psycho spiritual/ metaphysical state achieved through trance dance meditation or is it just an illusion of the senses that we have changed and we haven't really achieved anything other than transient states ?

 

:rolleyes:

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Does one come out a better person after an eye opening psycho spiritual/ metaphysical state achieved through trance dance meditation or is it just an illusion of the senses that we have changed and we haven't really achieved anything other than transient states ?

A better person, I don't know. A different person, that may be. A person that opened his eyes on some things, surely.

 

Well, first you need to enter an alternate state of consciousness out of dancing to the power of music. That's kinda hard and you can't control it. That's something that happened to me a few times spontaneouly because the music and the weather, and the ambiance were all perfect. Else, it's easier to do so with some psychotropic help, but we aren't talking about that, are we?

 

Well, so, everytime I came back to Earth after such an experience, I had the feeling I needed to relativize some things in my life. Like, think about what's really important in life, what to change with daily relationships, etc.

 

Maybe your frends didn't go as far as you in the trance-dance thing, maybe they're listening to styles of music that are less prone to slingshot them over the coulds, but overall, I tend to agree with you with a nuance: based on my own experience, I'd say you won't be changed or made better in a finger snap, but you'll start reflecting on your own life...which may induce some changes. In other words, the transient state helps opening your mind to oneself's changes, and whether changes happen or not, takes place after, and is entirely up to you.

 

With some drugs, in some conditions, though, it goes much further, and you can definitely get "altered" dutring a psychedelic experience, not always the good way, unfortunately. I wouldn't advise doing so.

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I don't believe in any of these "instant illumination" theories as they are. However I'm into the idea of progression and growing (slowly) as a person. And yes it's possible that music is a tool for progression, but you really really got to give it time to let your mind expand, it doesn't happen during one festival or a party. It may take a whole life time, but nonetheless, it's the journey I enjoy. All those little discoveries along the way.

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Does one come out a better person after an eye opening psycho spiritual/ metaphysical state achieved through trance dance meditation or is it just an illusion of the senses that we have changed and we haven't really achieved anything other than transient states ?

 

Well don't mix up the tools you use with what you do with them. Here's a parallel example: you can buy some weights, use them for a week and let them rust in a corner of your bedroom for the rest of the time. OR, you can use those weights every day, and do some running and swimming and biking and become a fit person with a nice body. Does buying those weights make you become fit? NO. It is the way you use them that makes all the difference.

 

The same goes with altered states of consciousness: you can just have an experience every once in a while and go back to your usual self the next day. Or you can use those experiences to take a look on your life and decide if it's headed in the right direction or if you shouldn't change course. Some people might go as far as abandoning a cushy job and stable lives to go live in the mountains with just enough money to get by. Others (like myself) just try to be a better person and live a life where they're not attached to materialistic values. I mean don't get me wrong, I do have an apartment, a job and a car but at the same time I don't feel the need of buying stuff I don't really need just for the sake of buying "I buy, therefore I am" kindof guy, and I know that my altered state experiences did a lot to change that. And I'm very thankfull because otherwise I bet I would've been just another sucker out there with some 20.000 euros debt and a house full of stupid useless things...

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Well don't mix up the tools you use with what you do with them. Here's a parallel example: you can buy some weights, use them for a week and let them rust in a corner of your bedroom for the rest of the time. OR, you can use those weights every day, and do some running and swimming and biking and become a fit person with a nice body. Does buying those weights make you become fit? NO. It is the way you use them that makes all the difference.

Oh man you make me want to start using my punching bag again ;_;

 

But yeah that was a great way of putting it.

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IMO

 

I think your mind is the driver but your body is the vehicle and your senses are the wheels.

 

If the driver and the vehicle are clean your journey will become peacefully because the wheels (your senses) will be in harmony with the track (Trance music) B) .

 

Or if you have an damaged vehicle, a drunk driver and bad wheel everybody knows what will be happening. You will have a bad trip :pissed: .

 

Trance music is just a fire-starter.

 

If there are no sun, no water and good ground a plant couldn't grows up.

 

 

 

Check that video :wub::lol::Djust the music and lyrics, forget about the anime!

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Well don't mix up the tools you use with what you do with them. Here's a parallel example: you can buy some weights, use them for a week and let them rust in a corner of your bedroom for the rest of the time. OR, you can use those weights every day, and do some running and swimming and biking and become a fit person with a nice body. Does buying those weights make you become fit? NO. It is the way you use them that makes all the difference.

 

The same goes with altered states of consciousness: you can just have an experience every once in a while and go back to your usual self the next day. Or you can use those experiences to take a look on your life and decide if it's headed in the right direction or if you shouldn't change course. Some people might go as far as abandoning a cushy job and stable lives to go live in the mountains with just enough money to get by. Others (like myself) just try to be a better person and live a life where they're not attached to materialistic values. I mean don't get me wrong, I do have an apartment, a job and a car but at the same time I don't feel the need of buying stuff I don't really need just for the sake of buying "I buy, therefore I am" kindof guy, and I know that my altered state experiences did a lot to change that. And I'm very thankfull because otherwise I bet I would've been just another sucker out there with some 20.000 euros debt and a house full of stupid useless things...

Well obviously one has to try and implement those changes that occur during or after such transcendental sessions to become a better person, and i know one cannot simply change overnight, sorry if i didnt make it clear enough. my point is my friends feel that one doesnt achieve anything from trance dance , no higher cousciousness , no feeling of oneness, spirituality etc etc . which i feel is very shallow. its all about having a good time according to them . they dont feel it can be used as a positive tool for lessening the ego, accessing higher virtues like selflessness forgiveness that are opposite of the ego.

 

i just wanted to check what the majority thinks here!

 

so the question changes to :

 

does trance dance mean something more than having a good time to you , can it be used as a means to achieve higher states of consciousness?

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Well obviously one has to try and implement those changes that occur during or after such transcendental sessions to become a better person, and i know one cannot simply change overnight, sorry if i didnt make it clear enough. my point is my friends feel that one doesnt achieve anything from trance dance , no higher cousciousness , no feeling of oneness, spirituality etc etc . which i feel is very shallow. its all about having a good time according to them . they dont feel it can be used as a positive tool for lessening the ego, accessing higher virtues like selflessness forgiveness that are opposite of the ego.

 

i just wanted to check what the majority thinks here!

 

so the question changes to :

 

does trance dance mean something more than having a good time to you , can it be used as a means to achieve higher states of consciousness?

 

well umm... I think that it then boils down to the use of certain substances or not... taking substances is not a must but it sure helps achieve such states. And if trance parties seem to work better than other music styles is because they are specifically made with hallucinogenic substances in mind (the music, the deco, etc). Now of course I'm not saying that it's the only way or anything, I remember some wise words from a yogi saying something like magic mushsrooms can help you reach and altered state, but once you know how to get there, you could just as well reach it just by taking a bath...

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I think trance is mostly a stress relief, your mind is completely blank yet you perceive everything and everyone around you, it's like the information is just passed straight through your brain and back out again, no filters apply.

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Are you sure that ego loss is always 'good' ?

that's the biggest question, innit? :)

 

its not always good, you need a certain sense of the self to get by in this material , selfish world, where each man is for himself, a necessary evil so to speak to enjoy the desires one craves for . whereas on the other hand, in a more philosophical context we are all going to die one day, life is too short to be stuck in the confines of one's own mind, the joy that comes with destruction of the ego ive heard can be infinite and ive experienced it in short doses to believe in it being true.

 

but there's a catch IMO, there can be ego loss only when the ego has come full circle, meaning when its fully satiated will it let go of you. till that happens it will never let you chill in peace.

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Well, I had something different in mind to be honest. When you have really have no or very littke sense of ego (ego loss), you have little or no awareness and memory of your actions, it's as if you stop being YOU and something else takes over you (inner passions,desires etc). So you are taken over by demons&angels, to put it metaphoricaly.

 

If we are just talking about some softening of the bad ego (e.g being able to get more into other's position etc), that's something very different from ego loss or ego death. (True ego death only happens when we die).

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Well, I had something different in mind to be honest. When you have really have no or very littke sense of ego (ego loss), you have little or no awareness and memory of your actions, it's as if you stop being YOU and something else takes over you (inner passions,desires etc). So you are taken over by demons&angels, to put it metaphoricaly.

 

If we are just talking about some softening of the bad ego (e.g being able to get more into other's position etc), that's something very different from ego loss or ego death. (True ego death only happens when we die).

 

hmm I wouldn't call that ego, rather consciousness... And no, I don't think anyone would want to lose that ;)

 

BTW just to dispell a certain myth: altered states of consciousness don't necessarily destroy the ego (or bad ego), I've found that some experiences actually enforce the ego, they end up making you feel all-powerfull (the "power" one's supposed to get after taking the ring in Lord of the Rind is pretty close to what it feels like) :)

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What's the ego then ? :)

Wikipedia is your best friend when in doubt ;)

 

In modern-day society, ego has many meanings. It could mean one’s self-esteem; an inflated sense of self-worth; or in philosophical terms, one’s self. However, according to Freud, the ego is the part of the mind which contains the consciousness.

So I guess that most people on this thread refered to the ego in the first sense whereas you ment it in the second sense :)

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Heh, I didn't like to resort to already-made definitions, more about how people here perceive it .

I also think that when talking about ego-death experiences it's meant in the 2nd sense I used too ;) ( note: ego is a greek-rooted word and it means "I" ) ego-loss : loss of "I".

 

And if it's talked as in self-esteem, usually it can get boosted as easily as it can be destroyed, after a psy experience.

Some might refer to ego as in opposition to our higher Self, so it gets even more complex than that.

 

I know one thing for sure(?), there's lots of cliche talk about ego etc, especially in the psy scene.

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That all powerful feeling that comes after a spiritual psy experience is when there is pure consciousness, good ego in a way, that is usually not in conflict with any other any ego in the ether space. i dunno about you when i am totally one with the music on the dance floor i tend to attract other people around all experiencing the same energy, there is a sort of mind expansion that takes place at that moment which happens sub-consciously. If the event lasts a good period of time it could be called active meditation , being one with everyone around. that for me is the ultimate ego loss and it also helps breaks barriers between people. And being able to relate to and understand each and every human being without prejudice is the highest virtue of mankind according to me.

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Does one come out a better person after an eye opening psycho spiritual/ metaphysical state achieved through trance dance meditation or is it just an illusion of the senses that we have changed and we haven't really achieved anything other than transient states ?

For most people change requires practice, lots of practice. It is easy to theoretically understand the notion of the interconnectedness or interdependences of all life, and it is even possible to experience that theory while on psychedelics, but the big challenge is to incorporate the experience into everyday life. That is where you need practice, and I do not mean further practice of psychedelics, but practice in changed behavior.

 

Behavior is a result of often repeated practice. Think of your infant brain as a field of soil. Think of any experience as a walk on that field. As you walk from point a to point b a path is formed. New experiences result in new paths. Some paths will be used often and others not so often. As time progress there will be a mesh of paths all over the field. As you grew older some paths have been used so often that by now they are like trenches. By that time it is hard to create new paths as you are more or less trapped in your by now deep trenches. An eye opening experience (such as an psychedelic experience) can for a moment lift you out of those trenches and help you realize that there are alternative paths and destinations than the ones that occupy your everyday life. As the experience fade you drift back to your trenches. If you have had a life changing experience you will start to make your way out of the trench, form new paths and fill up some of those old trenches. The true long lasting change happens after the experience, and it requires your effort and commitment.

 

I recently recommended a book called Zig Zag Zen: Buddhism and Psychedelics in another topic. It is a book for anyone interested in psychedelics and change, and for post-psychedelic users pondering their experiences. I think it is even more relevant for this particular topic.

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