Ormion Posted July 27, 2009 Author Share Posted July 27, 2009 What about - get over it and move on? I am amazed how much time and energy you people use on a band you dislike so much. My 2 cents about IM. I for one never thought they were special. I have heard a lot of pioneer Israeli and UK artists prior to their debut sounding very similar to IM’s music. IMO they copied various well-known Israeli and UK bands but had a much better Promotion strategy, and hats off, had/have a very high work ethics in order to become a success. Their music was/is (IMO) not special or genius or even interesting. But again that's me and my opinion and I am sure their popularity had a lot to do with the fact that many newcomers, at the time of IM’s debut and a few years after, did not know anything about pioneer artists showing the way for IM before they got introduced to IM and by that thought they had discovered something "groundbreaking" which is natural seen in the light they never heard this kind of music before. But for many of those of us who knew what came before IM their music was not that special. I also base this on talks with other old timers as myself. So again I suggest you move on and find other bands out in the big wide world of music. I can assure you there's a lot of amazing music out there. I doubt IM will start making music you like because you rant about their “selling out” in a underground forum I can understand if someone doesn't like IM, but... IM never copied anyone! Why ppl keep saying that? Tell me one artist, just ONE before IM that his music sounds anything like The Gathering or Classical Mushroom. The Gathering, Classical Mushroom and even B.P.Empire (which I don't think is a masterpiece) are three revolutionary albums that didn't copy any other artist before them. They're so classic that after so many years nothing similar ever happened. And here is the reason we bash IM. They were not just another great band, they were pioneers! True pioneers and now they make the most uninspired music. It's just sad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insejn Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 I'm sure you understood my point smartass Yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysium Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 I can understand if someone doesn't like IM, but... IM never copied anyone! Why ppl keep saying that? Tell me one artist, just ONE before IM that his music sounds anything like The Gathering or Classical Mushroom. The Gathering, Classical Mushroom and even B.P.Empire (which I don't think is a masterpiece) are three revolutionary albums that didn't copy any other artist before them. They're so classic that after so many years nothing similar ever happened. And here is the reason we bash IM. They were not just another great band, they were pioneers! True pioneers and now they make the most uninspired music. It's just sad Ok here you go in no particular order: MFG Astral Projection Hallucinogen Sandman Tandu Green Nuns of the Revolution Just to name a few of the true pioneers. If you listen to IM's first albums many of the elements sound very similar to the trademarks of these bands/artists. The sounds IM used had been used countless times, the melodies were nothing new and I can go on. Now I do not dish IM or tell you your taste is bad. I really could not care less about them or their music. All I am saying is you folks should move on. And I also don’t believe in telling people they have a bad taste as taste is a very personal thing. But facts are facts so let’s stick to them please. Now I respect your taste and that you love IM's early music but to say IM never copied anyone is a false statement. Every artist copy some other band or artists. That's what’s known as “inspiration” and IM was very inspired by the artists they grew up listening to. Especially the Israeli pioneers. It would be very interesting to have a Survey done showing how many of the diehard IM fans actually know the artists music showing the way before IM. I am pretty sure most won't be able to even mention one name. And that would also prove my point that IM is special to those diehard fans because they never heard this kind of music before getting introduced to IM. But that does not make IM the pioneers of psychedelic trance or even getting close being pioneers within this style of music. A pioneer is someone who comes up with something new. IM did not invent their music style or the sounds they used! They borrowed a lot from other artists. And that’s a fact no matter what the diehard fans think. If you do not believe me then I suggest you find music from the artists I mentioned or other Israeli and/or UK artists from 1994-1997 and sit down and listen carefully. Then you’ll agree with me. The true pioneers are some of the ones I listed above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insejn Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Ok here you go in no particular order: MFG Astral Projection Hallucinogen Sandman Tandu Green Nuns of the Revolution Just to name a few of the true pioneers. I agree with Ormion. I think the ones you mentioned here have much more in common with each other (well, maybe not Tandu) than any of them have with IM. I'm not saying IM didn't get inspired but they sure as hell didn't copy nobody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormion Posted July 27, 2009 Author Share Posted July 27, 2009 Ok here you go in no particular order: MFG Astral Projection Hallucinogen Sandman Tandu Green Nuns of the Revolution No, seriously Sandman that I can understand. A bit. Hallucinogen ok. Maybe. But the rest.... I don't disagree that they may inspired by these artists, but their music has nothing to do with them. BTW If Classical Mushroom isn't a pioneer album then nothing is. Simple as that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysium Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 I agree with Ormion. I think the ones you mentioned here have much more in common with each other (well, maybe not Tandu) than any of them have with IM. I'm not saying IM didn't get inspired but they sure as hell didn't copy nobody. If you get the chance one day ask Erez where he got his inspiration from I remember playing with him on a few occasions in Israel just before they got big and he loved these bands. It also showed up in his music he played and made at that time and I am sorry but I can still hear a strong doze of these bands trademarks in the "classic" IM albums. No, seriously Sandman that I can understand. A bit. Hallucinogen ok. Maybe. But the rest.... I don't disagree that they may inspired by these artists, but their music has nothing to do with them. Well listen to them again I find it quite funny (in a respectful way) that you diehard IM fans always claim that IM never copied anyone and that their music had nothing to do with anyone but IM. You can become too diehard you know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psyvox Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Ok here you go in no particular order: MFG Astral Projection Hallucinogen Sandman Tandu Green Nuns of the Revolution Just to name a few of the true pioneers. If you listen to IM's first albums many of the elements sound very similar to the trademarks of these bands/artists. The sounds IM used had been used countless times, the melodies were nothing new and I can go on. Now I do not dish IM or tell you your taste is bad. I really could not care less about them or their music. All I am saying is you folks should move on. And I also don’t believe in telling people they have a bad taste as taste is a very personal thing. But facts are facts so let’s stick to them please. Now I respect your taste and that you love IM's early music but to say IM never copied anyone is a false statement. Every artist copy some other band or artists. That's what’s known as “inspiration” and IM was very inspired by the artists they grew up listening to. Especially the Israeli pioneers. It would be very interesting to have a Survey done showing how many of the diehard IM fans actually know the artists music showing the way before IM. I am pretty sure most won't be able to even mention one name. And that would also prove my point that IM is special to those diehard fans because they never heard this kind of music before getting introduced to IM. But that does not make IM the pioneers of psychedelic trance or even getting close being pioneers within this style of music. A pioneer is someone who comes up with something new. IM did not invent their music style or the sounds they used! They borrowed a lot from other artists. And that’s a fact no matter what the diehard fans think. If you do not believe me then I suggest you find music from the artists I mentioned or other Israeli and/or UK artists from 1994-1997 and sit down and listen carefully. Then you’ll agree with me. The true pioneers are some of the ones I listed above. It's funny how you shamelessly combine in your post a clear lack of musical knowledge and appreciative skills with an extreme, outrageous self-confidence. Ormion -- I'm quite glad I found another person who appreciates IM's work to this extent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysium Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 It's funny how you shamelessly combine in your post a clear lack of musical knowledge and appreciative skills with an extreme, outrageous self-confidence. Ormion -- I'm quite glad I found another person who appreciates IM's work to this extent hmmm why is it shameless and outrageous to not be flabbegasted by IM's music and mention who they were inspred by on pienews? Could the answer be that you do not like someone having a different opinion than yours? And please tell me more about why I lack musical knowledge. I am intrigued Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysium Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 BTW If Classical Mushroom isn't a pioneer album then nothing is. Simple as that. Again this is a matter of taste. What you find pioneering i find mediocre (edit - not mediocre as they clearly are good at what they do - a better way to put it... no breaking news IMO). Simple as that I am sure you can agree that taste is taste. Yes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insejn Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 If you get the chance one day ask Erez where he got his inspiration from I remember playing with him on a few occasions in Israel just before they got big and he loved these bands. It also showed up in his music he played and made at that time and I am sorry but I can still hear a strong doze of these bands trademarks in the "classic" IM albums. Well listen to them again I find it quite funny (in a respectful way) that you diehard IM fans always claim that IM never copied anyone and that their music had nothing to do with anyone but IM. You can become too diehard you know Inspiration yes. Copying no. I know they said they got inspiration from Hallucinogen. But frankly, listen to Classical Mushroom, it has nothing to do with Hallucinogen. Even you can hear that no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysium Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Inspiration yes. Copying no. I know they said they got inspiration from Hallucinogen. But frankly, listen to Classical Mushroom, it has nothing to do with Hallucinogen. Even you can hear that no? Maybe I got different ears than you do But come on. Listen to the way their melodies are built up. MFG/Astral inspiration here I come and nothing wrong with that! But it can't be that hard to notice unless you stubbornly refuse anything but rosy red "we love them they are gods and NOONE ever sounded like them - they were the first psytrancers" views. Listen to the sounds they used. Classic sounds used in many other artists’ tracks at that time. I do not say the way they composed their tracks are copying - not at all. But the sounds they used especially on their first 2 albums was nothing new or groundbreaking (Their production was better than most though but that's another issue away from the musical aspect). As I said if you listen to other artists from the same period and prior to their debut you'll find many similar sounds in those artists’ tracks. It was THE SOUND of that time and IM was no exception! And by the way what's so bad about it? Everybody did it and still do it. I don't see why you diehard fans get so upset about it. It's common knowledge that most artists borrow from each other. IM included. I compare it to those who say Elvis invented the style of music he played. Yes he was extremely talented but if you start to dig into his History you’ll see he borrowed massive from the Black music at that time. Fact is he also copied other artists into his own style of music. Does that make you a pioneer? Some say yes. I say no. A true pioneer is the one people originally borrow from Ps! Now I have used way too much time debating about a band that's of no interest musically to me I still suggest you guys move on and dig into the huge amount of wonderful music this world has to offer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysium Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 If anyone draw parallells between hitler and jews, because the Infected Mushroom boys come from Israel which is a Jewish state, then you're sadly missing the point and should excert your unneccesary moralism elsewhere. Agree 100% Humor is always good but sometimes it goes a bit too far. I really don't find the Hitler "joke" funny at all seen in the light of what kind of person he was and what he did to the Jews included IM’s forefathers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psyvox Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 hmmm why is it shameless and outrageous to not be flabbegasted by IM's music and mention who they were inspred by on pienews? Could the answer be that you do not like someone having a different opinion than yours? gimme a break.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysium Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 gimme a break.. Why? You were the one accusing me of these things. So you must be able to explain why you think this way. If you can’t explain it or won’t then I suggest you restrain yourself from such outburst in the future as its non constructive to a debate. To claim something and then refuse to explain where you are coming from is a debate-killer also known as “trolling” I will kindly ask you again. Why is it shameless and outrageous to not be flabbegasted by IM's music and mention who they were inspred by on pienews? Could the answer be that you do not like someone having a different opinion than yours? And please tell me more about why I lack musical knowledge. I am intrigued I am still waiting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insejn Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Maybe I got different ears than you do But come on. Listen to the way their melodies are built up. MFG/Astral inspiration here I come and nothing wrong with that! But it can't be that hard to notice unless you stubbornly refuse anything but rosy red "we love them they are gods and NOONE ever sounded like them - they were the first psytrancers" views. Listen to the sounds they used. Classic sounds used in many other artists’ tracks at that time. I do not say the way they composed their tracks are copying - not at all. But the sounds they used especially on their first 2 albums was nothing new or groundbreaking (Their production was better than most though but that's another issue away from the musical aspect). As I said if you listen to other artists from the same period and prior to their debut you'll find many similar sounds in those artists’ tracks. It was THE SOUND of that time and IM was no exception! And by the way what's so bad about it? Everybody did it and still do it. I don't see why you diehard fans get so upset about it. It's common knowledge that most artists borrow from each other. IM included. I compare it to those who say Elvis invented the style of music he played. Yes he was extremely talented but if you start to dig into his History you’ll see he borrowed massive from the Black music at that time. Fact is he also copied other artists into his own style of music. Does that make you a pioneer? Some say yes. I say no. A true pioneer is the one people originally borrow from Ps! Now I have used way too much time debating about a band that's of no interest musically to me I still suggest you guys move on and dig into the huge amount of wonderful music this world has to offer I think this is a dead end discussion. Altho very interesting how very diverse we hear music. I'm going thru The Gathering as we speak and I'm struggling to hear any resemblance with Astral/MFG in "how their melodies are built up". Let's not forget that you are a serious producer which might have something to do with how we decifer the music, or what you wanna call it. Also would be nice if you could give example in were classic sounds were used prior to Classical Mushroom. I didn't say it was bad. I didn't agree with what you said first that they copied artists. Now you saying that they were inspired, which I can agree on lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psyvox Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Why? Because you are trying to gain a place of superiority in this thread through a self-confidence unjustified by the level of your intellectual development (displayed by your general opinion that "IM are poor musicians") and through clicheic, mediocre attempts to put down a conversation partner ("you do not like someone having a different opinion than yours"). Because of that, I don't consider it worth the time, or effort, to explain to you why I regard "Classical Mushroom" as one of the greatest electronic music masterpieces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysium Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Because you are trying to gain a place of superiority in this thread through a self-confidence unjustified by the level of your intellectual development (displayed by your general opinion that "IM are poor musicians") and through clicheic, mediocre attempts to put down a conversation partner ("you do not like someone having a different opinion than yours"). Because of that, I don't consider it worth the time, or effort, to explain to you why I regard "Classical Mushroom" as one of the greatest electronic music masterpieces. Wow you really are sensitive and assume things too much. I do at all not see where I was and I quote "self-confident", "unjustified by my level of intelligence" or for that matter trying to be "superior". It's a lot of things adding to my back just because I try to debate peacefully about a band I feel has got way too much attention. It's all in your own mind my friend. I never said anything about IM being poor musicians and I certainly never aimed at putting you or any other IM fan down. Please read my posts again before you jump to such extreme conclusions. Edited: And you seem to forget you were the one questioning my original post wrongly assuming things about me. Therefore I got the idea you did not like that I did not think the same as you about IM. I still think I was spot on after reading your latest reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysium Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 I think this is a dead end discussion. Altho very interesting how very diverse we hear music. I'm going thru The Gathering as we speak and I'm struggling to hear any resemblance with Astral/MFG in "how their melodies are built up". Let's not forget that you are a serious producer which might have something to do with how we decifer the music, or what you wanna call it. Also would be nice if you could give example in were classic sounds were used prior to Classical Mushroom. I didn't say it was bad. I didn't agree with what you said first that they copied artists. Now you saying that they were inspired, which I can agree on lol. Yes I agree it's probably a dead end discussion even though I feel some of you are a bit too sensitive regarding IM But nevertheless it's very interesting indeed how differently people approach music and analyzes it. Maybe that's another discussion some other day I will for sure give you examples later. I am a bit busy at the moment with some overdue design work. As soon as I got the time to dig out examples I'll post them here. Peace Kristian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwhale Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Because of that, I don't consider it worth the time, or effort, to explain to you why I regard "Classical Mushroom" as one of the greatest electronic music masterpieces.Please explain I'd like to know. I wonder if you think using classical sounds in electronic music is super original or something. :wank: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oopie Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Curious to read such a bold statement as I.M. copying former pioneer artists. Taste and music, they're often hard to discuss as it's clear all of us, we perceive sounds in a unique way. Guess if you want to be in some way factual about it; one could provide a list of technical gear all the mentioned artists have used. Based on own hearing, would put my money on I.M. having quite a different setup. You know there's a good way of telling an original artist: You hear a random track by them/him and you can say - aha! It's x. Etnica (early), Hallucinogen, I.M. - they all have very identifiable sound you can instantly spot and not confuse with other artists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ake Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 nice to see some people here who agree with me that IM are (and were) only well promoted copycats. very nice. most of the time i browse the forums here, i have the impresion that people think IM are actually the true gods and pioneers of psychedelic trance, which is simply nonsense of course. sure, their first 2 albums are not bad, but there is nothing special about them. actually they are quite boring. Other israeli artists made much better music even years earlier. And calling them pioneers is really funny. The Gathering appeared in 1999, (Non-)Classical Mushroom in 2000. I don't say that there was no good goa trance in these years. But it's a fact that these were the years in which many people and labels started to produce psychedelic trance because they intended to have commercial success or at least decent result. Tbh, i think there are no 'pioneers of psychedelic trance' who started making music later than 1996. The pioneers are MWNN, AP, Hallucinogen and several others, but not IM for sure. Short off topic: i read people saying something like "it's a matter of (personal) taste" several times in this thread. In case of IM that might be true. And it's true when talking of professional artists like for example Madonna, Phil Collins, etc. I'm not interested in their music, but i respect them as professional artists. But in case of "artists" like for example Britney Spears or others from that category, you cannot speak about a "matter of taste". People who seriously like them and listen to their music are just stupid (yes, unintelligent), and that's it. further discussions unnecessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psyvox Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 So perhaps that's why IM decided to make psychedelic pop. Why work so hard to make a masterpiece that very few will get (while the rest will even throw mud at it ), when they can have Duvdev singing in front of huge pubescent crowds for loads and loads of money (and probably less studio work)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reger Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Because you are trying to gain a place of superiority in this thread through a self-confidence unjustified by the level of your intellectual development (displayed by your general opinion that "IM are poor musicians") and through clicheic, mediocre attempts to put down a conversation partner ("you do not like someone having a different opinion than yours"). Because of that, I don't consider it worth the time, or effort, to explain to you why I regard "Classical Mushroom" as one of the greatest electronic music masterpieces. Eh dude, give Elysium a break, you assume too much As for my opinion about IM's music - i think their oldies, the ones everyone loves, have all major goa killer sounds and attributes mixed into one, synthetic IM music with their distinct sound, at the same time you CAN tell that they seem to have been using golden goa elements LOUD, as in, putting all power into them, i dont know how to explain that, i woudlnt want to say that they are copy cats, but they didnt just wake up one day and invent goa, tho i couldnt care less, im not their fan or groupie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oopie Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 But in case of "artists" like for example Britney Spears or others from that category, you cannot speak about a "matter of taste". People who seriously like them and listen to their music are just stupid (yes, unintelligent), and that's it. further discussions unnecessary. To measure intelligence - would be hard if not impossible, not only because we simply lack devices to give exact results (let's say you make a test and answer certain questions - the only thing this test factually tells is whether you can answer the questions. All further conclusions are assumptions of some sort.) and secondly, because intelligence is such an open field: there's social, mathematical etc. types. Mathematic skills might be the easiest to measure, yet something such as a 'good person', can you give more than an opinion about it? That smiley there might be a hint of you not being all serious, hopefully so. Making such harsh a claim as all BS listeners (sorry for the pun ) being stupid - is plain and simple, a bit rude. Cherish your taste by all means, but being a tad sensitive for people with different preferences to music is not really too much to ask, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormion Posted July 27, 2009 Author Share Posted July 27, 2009 sure, their first 2 albums are not bad, but there is nothing special about them. actually they are quite boring. Other israeli artists made much better music even years earlier. And calling them pioneers is really funny. The Gathering appeared in 1999, (Non-)Classical Mushroom in 2000. I don't say that there was no good goa trance in these years. But it's a fact that these were the years in which many people and labels started to produce psychedelic trance because they intended to have commercial success or at least decent result. Tbh, i think there are no 'pioneers of psychedelic trance' who started making music later than 1996. The pioneers are MWNN, AP, Hallucinogen and several others, but not IM for sure. I don't think anyone said that IM are responsible for the creation of psychedelic/goa trance. You got it all wrong. And if you think that pioneers are only the early artists then I respectfully disagree. Even post 2000 there are pioneer and revolutionary albums. And just because we said that IM are pioneers doesn't mean we believe they are the only pioneers. The fact that IM released an album so fresh and new in 1999 actually proves how much pioneers they really were. When goa trance first ''created'' back in 1993/1994 everything sounded revolutionary and new, since there wasn't an existing similar music to compare. But in 1999, 5-6 years after the goa trance ''creation'' and hundreds of albums and thousands of tracks IM released an album that sounded like no other. If this not the definition of ''pioneer artists'' then which is it? They did the same thing again one year later with the even more revolutionary Classical Mushroom. And when ppl accuse IM for not being pioneer plz use valid examples of copying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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