The "Not as much love for IFO as everyone else" thread

[Lemmiwinks]

That's exactly what I mean

Of course Jannis is influenced by Pleiadians, but I found his music having huge differences with Pleiadians sound.

 

It's like MFG influenced by AP, I always considered them as twin projects, but their sound is totally unique.

well if you ask me, there's a HUGE difference between MFG and AP on one hand and Pleiadians and Filteria on the other. Even if MFG started off being inspired by AP their sound has changed dramatically from one album to the next, whereas Filteria seems to remain stuck to the IFO "formula". But we're splitting ends here and in the end as long as the music is good, who cares anyway?

[rino]

Yes but... goa trance tends to be more complex than most other types of electronic music (that I know of at least!). If you remove the beat & quadruple the number of layers and have them played by an orchestra you're doing a very similar thing to what Mozart did. On the other hand if you take 1/4 the layers and make minimal or whatever else you're probably lessening the skill involved. (You can just tinker with a couple layers and come up with something that sounds catchy; more layers makes it practically impossible.)

 

Goa trance still requires talent -- there is no doubt about this, just the exact amount! It's not easy to coordinate a handful of layers at the same time and make them all work together to produce something amazing. Weaker stuff often has random sounds thrown in that don't really add to the music! The better stuff is creative and layered and it all comes together! Many other types of electronic music are just about a couple layers and/or a beat! Looking at how fast they get produced is it's a very rough estimate as to the quality. There are very few GOOD goa groups that released multiple albums a year every year. Some albums are multiple years in the making. (Note this can indicate lack of talent as well.)

I think you are just wrong and out of place and time with your comment I just have to reflect upon it.

Basically you're saying that goa trance requires talent because it's layered, maybe more than other styles of electronic music, and how more sounds applied in a track implies better quality? What the hell?

Your statement about making minimal and using less layers in a track is redundant. Artists like Atmos, The Delta/X-Dream and Krumelur are structuring tracks around 2-3 layers and making them revolve around stripped down beats and magnificent, throbbing and deep bass lines. The above are just a few examples of producers who kick major ass with apparent monotony and simplicity within their music. There are artists out there who display such understanding of music itself and manifest way more talent and knack for production, despite staying clear of massive climaxes and layers.

And what about house or techno? To quote you: "Many other types of electronic music are just about a couple layers and/or a beat!". So what? Why and how is that bad. There are artists who make masterpieces with two pieces of hardware, likewise there are trying-so-hard-to-be-maximal producers who think that keeping a track always busy will make listeners think how they're packed with ideas. Right.

Sometimes, less is just more. If you have talent and know your shit, you don't need 28 layers in order for others to appreciate what you're doing. Just like by placing 28 layers in a track, you won't fool anyone. You're not doing anything revolutionary by loading a track with what not. After all, it's easy to see through 28 layers and discern shit. Get my point?

[frozen dream]

haha

[Lemmiwinks]

I think you are just wrong and out of place and time with your comment I just have to reflect upon it.

Basically you're saying that goa trance requires talent because it's layered, maybe more than other styles of electronic music, and how more sounds applied in a track implies better quality? What the hell?

Your statement about making minimal and using less layers in a track is redundant. Artists like Atmos, The Delta/X-Dream and Krumelur are structuring tracks around 2-3 layers and making them revolve around stripped down beats and magnificent, throbbing and deep bass lines. The above are just a few examples of producers who kick major ass with apparent monotony and simplicity within their music. There are artists out there who display such understanding of music itself and manifest way more talent and knack for production, despite staying clear of massive climaxes and layers.

And what about house or techno? To quote you: "Many other types of electronic music are just about a couple layers and/or a beat!". So what? Why and how is that bad. There are artists who make masterpieces with two pieces of hardware, likewise there are trying-so-hard-to-be-maximal producers who think that keeping a track always busy will make listeners think how they're packed with ideas. Right.

Sometimes, less is just more. If you have talent and know your shit, you don't need 28 layers in order for others to appreciate what you're doing. Just like by placing 28 layers in a track, you won't fool anyone. You're not doing anything revolutionary by loading a track with what not. After all, it's easy to see through 28 layers and discern shit. Get my point?

 

OK, one can make a track with 2 layers that rocks and another can make one with 28 that sucks but still, technically it's harder to make one with 28 layers than one with 2, no? And you need more inpiration to find 28 layers which combine well and make something coherent, whereas just finding 2 layers that work well together requires relativley less inspiration, right?

[rino]

OK, one can make a track with 2 layers that rocks and another can make one with 28 that sucks but still, technically it's harder to make one with 28 layers than one with 2, no? And you need more inpiration to find 28 layers which combine well and make something coherent, whereas just finding 2 layers that work well together requires relativley less inspiration, right?

In a world where theory and mathematics would be the name of the game, you'd be 100% correct.

Still, anno 2008, I beg to differ. Not that I don't see where you're coming from, and we could argue and start what I imagine as a cool discussion, but take history's examples: somewhere around 1990 that de Mooy dutch producer sets grounds for the entire hardcore genre by sampling "come on!" and "yaaaah!" in his otherwise ordinary techno tune; in 1991 Speedy J hits superstardom with "Pull Over", THE insanely simple yet catchy rave anthem, based on the "siren synth" and a run of the mill drum programming... Two years later you know who with you know what track becomes THE #1 house hold name in the global electronic music scene, regardless of the genre, style, or whatever other factor. Hell, not far from then Jeff Mills becomes techno's biggest figure of the past decade. Why? For developing a concept of taking ass shaking four beat loops and laying them over a constant beat for anywhere between 4 and 5 minutes. Dave Clarke becomes the greatest phenomenon since stripped tooth paste for taking the "rewind" sound and using it as a bass line in his track... And it could go on and on...

My point being: what I've listed above are crucial tracks in anybody's language of electronic music, each of which has influenced the coarse of electronic music more than any multi layered, epic lead driven goa trance track. I am not dissing or trying to tarnish the beauty and the overall importance of the aforementioned genre, I'm merely placing down some facts.

I don't agree you need more inspiration to find 28 layers and combine them into something coherent. I don't think that is true. I believe that 2 layers adequately used pack more of a punch than 28 forced out layers for the hell of just being there. A really gifted and skilled producer will arrange 28 layers just as easy as 2, but the fact you insist on doing one of the two cannot automaticaly exclude the other.

It is never relevant how much and what you have, it is what you do with it that counts.

[Lemmiwinks]

In a world where theory and mathematics would be the name of the game, you'd be 100% correct.

Still, anno 2008, I beg to differ. Not that I don't see where you're coming from, and we could argue and start what I imagine as a cool discussion, but take history's examples: somewhere around 1990 that de Mooy dutch producer sets grounds for the entire hardcore genre by sampling "come on!" and "yaaaah!" in his otherwise ordinary techno tune; in 1991 Speedy J hits superstardom with "Pull Over", THE insanely simple yet catchy rave anthem, based on the "siren synth" and a run of the mill drum programming... Two years later you know who with you know what track becomes THE #1 house hold name in the global electronic music scene, regardless of the genre, style, or whatever other factor. Hell, not far from then Jeff Mills becomes techno's biggest figure of the past decade. Why? For developing a concept of taking ass shaking four beat loops and laying them over a constant beat for anywhere between 4 and 5 minutes. Dave Clarke becomes the greatest phenomenon since stripped tooth paste for taking the "rewind" sound and using it as a bass line in his track... And it could go on and on...

My point being: what I've listed above are crucial tracks in anybody's language of electronic music, each of which has influenced the coarse of electronic music more than any multi layered, epic lead driven goa trance track. I am not dissing or trying to tarnish the beauty and the overall importance of the aforementioned genre, I'm merely placing down some facts.

I don't agree you need more inspiration to find 28 layers and combine them into something coherent. I don't think that is true. I believe that 2 layers adequately used pack more of a punch than 28 forced out layers for the hell of just being there. A really gifted and skilled producer will arrange 28 layers just as easy as 2, but the fact you insist on doing one of the two cannot automaticaly exclude the other.

It is never relevant how much and what you have, it is what you do with it that counts.

 

hmm yes but what you're saying is how to ensure commercial success... dumbed-down music for dumbed-down people, whereas goatrance (at least in the early days) had somewhat of an "elite" feeling to it: you remember all those hipppie types going like "bleh get away with your stupid commercial music, I'm listening to GOAtrance", as if simply owning an Astral Projection CD made you intelectually superior or something... I know that the elitism is far gone from the scene today (well, when the main acts today are basically making pop music with a rolling bassline, what would you expect? lol). Ah well, anyway, I do not disagree with you, I just like splitting hairs

[sunwolf]

I think you are just wrong and out of place and time with your comment I just have to reflect upon it.

Basically you're saying that goa trance requires talent because it's layered, maybe more than other styles of electronic music, and how more sounds applied in a track implies better quality? What the hell?

Your statement about making minimal and using less layers in a track is redundant. Artists like Atmos, The Delta/X-Dream and Krumelur are structuring tracks around 2-3 layers and making them revolve around stripped down beats and magnificent, throbbing and deep bass lines. The above are just a few examples of producers who kick major ass with apparent monotony and simplicity within their music. There are artists out there who display such understanding of music itself and manifest way more talent and knack for production, despite staying clear of massive climaxes and layers.

And what about house or techno? To quote you: "Many other types of electronic music are just about a couple layers and/or a beat!". So what? Why and how is that bad. There are artists who make masterpieces with two pieces of hardware, likewise there are trying-so-hard-to-be-maximal producers who think that keeping a track always busy will make listeners think how they're packed with ideas. Right.

Sometimes, less is just more. If you have talent and know your shit, you don't need 28 layers in order for others to appreciate what you're doing. Just like by placing 28 layers in a track, you won't fool anyone. You're not doing anything revolutionary by loading a track with what not. After all, it's easy to see through 28 layers and discern shit. Get my point?

Can you possibly fail to grasp that it requires more talent to coordinate 300 layers than 5 or 10 and come up with something that it's bearable to listen to? You can't just randomly guess at which succession of notes each individual in the orchestra should be playing and come out with the masterpiece symphony. You can quite easily make a simple catchy tune. Goa Trance falls somewhere in the middle there.

[sunwolf]

hmm yes but what you're saying is how to ensure commercial success... dumbed-down music for dumbed-down people, whereas goatrance (at least in the early days) had somewhat of an "elite" feeling to it: you remember all those hipppie types going like "bleh get away with your stupid commercial music, I'm listening to GOAtrance", as if simply owning an Astral Projection CD made you intelectually superior or something... I know that the elitism is far gone from the scene today (well, when the main acts today are basically making pop music with a rolling bassline, what would you expect? lol). Ah well, anyway, I do not disagree with you, I just like splitting hairs

Yes it still doesn't fully make sense to me though.

 

Reason: Hippies aren't exactly the elite class.

 

I suppose they could be thought of as remnants of it though. I'm thinking along the lines of conscious nihilists, perhaps an attempt to overcome nihilism rather than to find the infinite melody, which is clearly what the masses look for in music.

[sunwolf]

but take history's examples: somewhere around 1990 that de Mooy dutch producer sets grounds for the entire hardcore genre by sampling "come on!" and "yaaaah!" in his otherwise ordinary techno tune; in 1991 Speedy J hits superstardom with "Pull Over"

Looking at history = going all the way back to 1990?! Wow....! What these people did was CREATIVE. In fact they probably thought it up in the fucking shower. Genius or not? You tell me.

 

THE insanely simple yet catchy rave anthem, based on the "siren synth" and a run of the mill drum programming... Two years later you know who with you know what track becomes THE #1 house hold name in the global electronic music scene, regardless of the genre, style, or whatever other factor. Hell, not far from then Jeff Mills becomes techno's biggest figure of the past decade.

What does the popularity of music in the 20th century have to do with how much genius it takes to produce it? It seems obvious to me that it's an inverse relationship.

 

Dave Clarke becomes the greatest phenomenon since stripped tooth paste for taking the "rewind" sound and using it as a bass line in his track... And it could go on and on...

Yes you could mention Tiesto next... biggest name in trance and he produces shitty music, therefore shitty music must actually be good music -- or take talent to produce -- otherwise he wouldn't be the #1 DJ according to DJ magazine!

 

I don't agree you need more inspiration to find 28 layers and combine them into something coherent. I don't think that is true. I believe that 2 layers adequately used pack more of a punch than 28 forced out layers for the hell of just being there.

Well you're a moron then (or perhaps in denial?).

[Towelie]

[sunwolf]

[rino]

Sunwolf, not only are you placing DJ Tiesto, Dave Clarke and who else not in the same sentence, but you're calling me a moron for providing trustworthy and corrct facts.

 

So wait, because A.P.'s music is more layered than Hawtin's, Derrick May's, Dave Clarke's or any given XY producer whose input in the overall development of electronic music beats the living devil out of practically any goa trance artist's discography, means that the aforementioned israeli duo is better/more talented? Right.

I wonder how long have you been acquainted with the term "electronic music"? Why don't you go around and try explaining to people why are multi layered, climax driven goa trance tunes historically more important for electronic music than virtually any given tune recorded by any of the producers I've listed above. And see what you get except for "Who the fuck are Astral Projection?!?!" in a 90 percentile average as the answer.

Go ahead and diss some more if it's going to make you feel better. Because that is as good as it will get for you and your crew of 20 shiva shanti illusioned babas.

 

Hell, if owning Astral Projection CDs makes one intelectually superior, than I'm Nikola Tesla.

It's fun however how except for a super limited and restricted amount of people nobody has ever heard about these alleged heroes and genius producers... Sure, place 28 layer in one track and be happy if 28 people cop your album. But hey, "look ma, I'm an undeservably neglected genius!"...

[Goa Bill]

Can you possibly fail to grasp that it requires more talent to coordinate 300 layers than 5 or 10 and come up with something that it's bearable to listen to? You can't just randomly guess at which succession of notes each individual in the orchestra should be playing and come out with the masterpiece symphony. You can quite easily make a simple catchy tune. Goa Trance falls somewhere in the middle there.

No, you are wrong.

Examples?

Plastikman>Any Dark Psy artist with 400 layers in a track.

It's never about quantity but about quality.

Plastikman's Closer and Consumed takes me to much deeper psychedelic realms than everything with thousands of layers that is being released nowadays.

[Goa Bill]

It's a good question. Probably because I am an idiot.

Hehe, you sir have made a stupid deed but you're in luck cause this album is a classic. And you probably can sell it to a fellow idiot for twice what you paid to Lube U.

[rino]

Pavel's example proves my point. And if you're so confident that god like goa trance prodcuers are so divinely gifted, why don't you explain to a mortal how do your favorites, Transwave and Dimension 5, stand against heavy weight electronic music champions, such as Hawtin, Dopplereffekt, or Jochem Paap? I don't think a single individual who has any insight of electronic music would consider Deep Space 5D historically more important and influential than Spastik. Layers? Kids talk, my man...

Tell me how does their alleged complex layering place them ahead of the examples I gave above? I rest my case.

[sunwolf]

Straw man.

 

All I stated is: More layers require more skill to coordinate with a positive outcome (see my first line!!). Layered random noise takes no genius obviously. Layered music may still not be very good music. Layered music may still lack creativity. But if it is good music, it required more skill to create.

 

That music requires more skill to create DOES NOT MEAN that it will effect the history of music more. It DOES NOT MEAN that it will be more popular. It simply means it required more skill to make. Many people don't appreciate musical genius and just like to listen to catchy emotional melodies as a sort of escapism (probably including you).

[NEMO.BOFH]

No, you are wrong.

Examples?

Plastikman>Any Dark Psy artist with 400 layers in a track.

It's never about quantity but about quality.

Plastikman's Closer and Consumed takes me to much deeper psychedelic realms than everything with thousands of layers that is being released nowadays.

A TO THE M TO THE E TO THE N!

 

THE TUNNEL!

[NEMO.BOFH]

More layers require more skill to coordinate with a positive outcome (see my first line!!).

B to the ULLSHIT!

[Otto Matta]

[NEMO.BOFH]

[Ormion]

I agree with sunwolf, but I don't disagree with rino.

 

Making great multi-layered music that sounds great and not as random chaos requires skill.

Making one-two layered music that doesn't sound boring requires skill too.

 

That's the bottom line IMO.

[Otto Matta]

Making great multi-layered music that sounds great and not as random chaos requires skill.

Making one-two layered music that doesn't sound boring requires skill too.

 

That's the bottom line IMO.

A sensible comment! Congratulations.

[Goa Bill]

A sensible comment! Congratulations.

Head -> Nail

[sunwolf]

I agree with sunwolf, but I don't disagree with rino.

 

Making great multi-layered music that sounds great and not as random chaos requires skill.

Making one-two layered music that doesn't sound boring requires skill too.

 

That's the bottom line IMO.

Making any music requires some skill. However, I have much higher expectations of good music than that it isn't boring. (If you judge music by whether or not it can entertain you for awhile without being bored you'd might as well go listen to popular music because that's the exact point behind it! I like my music to have depth, creativity, tell some story, be realistic, approach a goal, etc, rather than just another attempt to find an "infinite melody" that will put me into a lengthy state of bliss.)

 

Bottom line is, though, that with two layers you can largely exhaust your options for a 5 minute track in a week or so, while with 300 layers you could stumble around your whole life and never arrive at the best one.

[Ormion]

Making any music requires some skill. However, I have much higher expectations of good music than that it isn't boring. (If you judge music by whether or not it can entertain you for awhile without being bored you'd might as well go listen to popular music because that's the exact point behind it! I like my music to have depth, creativity, tell some story, be realistic, approach a goal, etc, rather than just another attempt to find an "infinite melody" that will put me into a lengthy state of bliss.)

 

Bottom line is, though, that with two layers you can largely exhaust your options for a 5 minute track in a week or so, while with 300 layers you could stumble around your whole life and never arrive at the best one.

I don't disagree at all. What I'm trying to say is quite simple

When you write a track with dozens of layers the biggest concern is how to make all these layers flow and not sound like a mess.

When you write a one-two layers track your biggest concern is how to make these two layers to don't expire in a matter of seconds and keep your track going for minutes.

In both cases requires skills

I hope you got my point.